RobSag Posted August 6, 2014 Author Share Posted August 6, 2014 By the way, I think this Shure cart might be defective. When I was trying to align it, it seemed to me that the cantilever wasn't completely straight, so I set it upside down in a leveled place, set my DSLR to 200mm and then brought it into Lightroom and Photoshop to see it better. I corrected the lens profile in Lightroom, so in theory it shouldn't have any lens distortion, but I don't know for sure, it looks good to me. Well, as you can see, the cantilever and stylus are off 3.6° with the cart: So this means that it's touching one side of the groove more than the other side, and it's defective, right? I mean, shouldn't it be perfectly straight with the cart? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tardcore Posted August 6, 2014 Share Posted August 6, 2014 the whole thing looks to be slightly skewed that away. might just be me, but the blue lines do not look like they are quite square with the cart. gabpower 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobSag Posted August 6, 2014 Author Share Posted August 6, 2014 the whole thing looks to be slightly skewed that away. might just be me, but the blue lines do not look like they are quite square with the cart. You're right, it seems a bit skewed so I did it again, this time without the headshell: 2° may not seem much, but it's clear that it's touching one side of the groove more than the other, so it's going back and I'm going to order the AT120E. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
necroking Posted August 6, 2014 Share Posted August 6, 2014 hey just a quick tip, check the azimuth on the TT. when i got my atlp120 the azimuth on the tonearm was off and i had to adjust it, which is a pain in the ass IMO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xxmartinxx Posted August 6, 2014 Share Posted August 6, 2014 Yeah, that thing isn't right. What's worse than it being slightly crooked, but that it looks slightly twisted, which you'd have to try to compensate the azimuth pretty significantly to get it to lay right. Did you buy it new? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allenh Posted August 6, 2014 Share Posted August 6, 2014 you do get some variance in the straightness of cantilever in cheap carts but that one is quite a bit out, it doesn't answer why you cant set it properly with the protractor though. Can you set the original AT cart correctly? And as for the overhang value your AT120 is supposed to be a copy of a SL1200 so look up the correct specs for one of those on Vinyl engine, there might be an overhang gauge to download as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobSag Posted August 6, 2014 Author Share Posted August 6, 2014 Thanks for your replies, yes, the Shure is new so it's going back to Amazon for a refund, and then I'll order the AT120E, although I'm not sure yet, I will try to align my AT95E that came with the TT and see what kind of IGD I get. It sounds really good, and based on the first attempts at aligning it, it doesn't show a lot of IGD except with the worst records. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobSag Posted August 7, 2014 Author Share Posted August 7, 2014 Do you guys ever align the cartridge by ear? Meaning, moving it and testing the last song until you get an acceptable result? Because I've used the Technics Baerwald protractor, then the Stevenson protractor that is supposed to be perfect for my turntable, but I still get IGD. Then today I decided to play it by ear with Talking Heads' "True Stories", which is an album with rather bad IGD, if not the worst. But I twisted the cartridge bit by bit, not using any protractor, and I got it to a point where it sounded with less distortion than with the more scientific methods. This is with the AT95E cart, the Shure is already out and being packed for return. I ordered the AT120ET, mostly because I read from many people that it's about the best to minimize IGD, which is the only thing about vinyl that drives me up the wall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allenh Posted August 7, 2014 Share Posted August 7, 2014 I have done it but I would always check it's not too far out with the protractor afterwards, as you can have optimised if got the inner grooves and be way out on the outer ones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobSag Posted August 12, 2014 Author Share Posted August 12, 2014 One thing I don't understand, since I got the AT120ET and aligned it, on most records I can't hear any IGD, only in a handful of them. So if it's possible to get rid of it almost completely, why is it that there is no standard on that? I mean, until I got the AT120ET, I assumed that IGD was a problem inherent to vinyl, but it's not as long as you have the right cart/stylus. Why is it that there isn't an ISO guideline or something like that to prevent it on every cart/stylus being sold? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajxd Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 Do you hear IGD on your heavier records? Like 180-200g records? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobSag Posted August 13, 2014 Author Share Posted August 13, 2014 Well, the heaviest records I have (and I don't know if they are 180g) are the two that make Foo Fighter's "Wasting Light", which I bought sealed brand new, but you'd be hard pressed to listen to any IGD on it even on a crappy turntable, because they only have three songs per side, actually two on the last side, and they are at 45 RPM. So I really don't know. I know that on most records I bought, which are cheap and used, I can't hear any IGD, or if I do, it's very faint. I can tell you this: Michael Jackson's "Thriller" the song, at the end of side A, sounds so perfect it that it could be the first song. And Huey Lewis & The News' "Hip To Be Square", also the last song of "Fore!" side A, same thing, it sounds unbelievable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allenh Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 There is a huge degree in difference in the quality of vinyl mastering and pressing so sometimes you can only get so far with this depending on the limitations of your cartridge and tonearm combination. Obviously some carts / arms are better at this and there is a lot of geometry involved but you should be able to get to a point where it's a minor annoyance at best. Also if you have a record that is pressed slightly off centre it can cause it. Another thing to consider is static in that if you are getting static build up by the time that you get to the end of a side you can get distortion because of the static but if you can pinpoint it consistently to particular albums that do and don't give you IGD then that's probably not it. Also check your anti skate, play a side all the way through and by the time it gets to the inner track look head on at the cartridge and see if the cantilever is being consistently pulled to one side or the other, it will move about from side to side naturally as it tracks but if it's consistently to one side you either have too much or not enough anti skate on. You need to play a side all the way through to see this effect though not just put the needle down near the end as the force builds as it tracks in to the centre. Have a search for a hifi test record they are about and can be very useful in setup if you just can't get it where you want it, it will also tell you if it's as good as you are going to get it to save you going mad with it. The big thing with CD is convenience and consistency. It might not sound as nice as vinyl but it's consistent in it's sound, but then where's the fun in that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobSag Posted August 13, 2014 Author Share Posted August 13, 2014 Thanks Allenh, the anti-skate is set to 2, which is what it says in the manual of the AT, but that is also considering the tracking force of the AT95E that comes with it, which is also 2. Does that mean that since the tracking force of the AT120ET is 1.4 I should set anti-skate to that as well? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allenh Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 There are two schools of thought on anti skate, some say set the value the same as the tracking force and and some say set it at 1/2 the tracking force. I always start with the same as the tracking force and work from there. One thing though a tracking force of 1.4 sounds very low for that cart so is that right? Running light can cause a lot of tracking problems which might explain your IGD. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobSag Posted August 13, 2014 Author Share Posted August 13, 2014 One thing though a tracking force of 1.4 sounds very low for that cart so is that right? Running light can cause a lot of tracking problems which might explain your IGD. Well, it's what's recommended in the AT120ET manual. But like I said, I barely have any IGD since I installed this cart. It's just excellent. However, sometimes I have to set the tracking force a bit higher, because a few of these used records have those deformities that are not very gradual, but rather sudden, so it makes the arm kind of jump if left at 1.4. According to the manual, the tracking force can be set between 1.0 and 1.8, optimal being 1.4. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allenh Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 OK go with that it just seemed a little low but if that's what the book says then that will be right. Set the anti skate to 1.4 as well then and you may find the problem records don't cause as many problems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForSunday Posted August 14, 2014 Share Posted August 14, 2014 If you really wanted to get away from IGD you should have bought the 440 not the 120. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobSag Posted August 14, 2014 Author Share Posted August 14, 2014 If you really wanted to get away from IGD you should have bought the 440 not the 120. Maybe the 440 is better, but many people also say it's overly bright, which I wouldn't like. However, IGD is not a problem in 95% of the records I have, which must be a bit over a hundred. Right now I'm listening to the soundtrack of the movie "White Nights", a record I bought for $3, and it's not exactly in good shape, the groove noise along with pops and clicks is very audible. However, this records has zero IGD. And that's the case on almost every record since I bought the AT120ET, to the point where I'm much more hooked up on vinyl now than I was a week ago before I had discovered the AT120ET. There are just a few records that show some IGD (and even then it's much less than with any of the other carts I had in this TT and previous ones), for example Bruce Hornsby's "The Way It Is", but on most of them the last song sounds as good as the first. This of course can't be the case technically speaking because there's simply less information by the time the stylus reads the inner grooves, but to my ears it sounds just as good. I was blown away by the song "Thriller" in the album of the same name, not only there's no IGD, it has a sound quality that blows you away. Same with Huey Lewis' "Hip To Be Square" at the end of side A of "Fore!" and that is the case with many other records. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alec124c41 Posted January 13, 2016 Share Posted January 13, 2016 Please note that using a protractor sets the correct overhang for that alignment. Do NOT then set overhang with another device. Setting a specified overhang with the cartridge straight in the headshell is just a quick way to get in the ballpark. A Baerwald alignment will be close to 2 mm longer than a Stevenson alignment, and who knows what alignment some manufacturers use. I like Baerwald, but Stevenson might be better for those inner grooves of long records, because it uses an inner null point that is closer to the spindle. Cheers, Alec Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tardcore Posted January 13, 2016 Share Posted January 13, 2016 Please note that using a protractor sets the correct overhang for that alignment. Do NOT then set overhang with another device. Setting a specified overhang with the cartridge straight in the headshell is just a quick way to get in the ballpark. A Baerwald alignment will be close to 2 mm longer than a Stevenson alignment, and who knows what alignment some manufacturers use. I like Baerwald, but Stevenson might be better for those inner grooves of long records, because it uses an inner null point that is closer to the spindle. Cheers, Alec I'm sure that the OP's descendents appreciate your help. ksuwdboots, YouTwo, slinch and 1 other 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajxd Posted January 13, 2016 Share Posted January 13, 2016 Please note that using a protractor sets the correct overhang for that alignment. Do NOT then set overhang with another device. Setting a specified overhang with the cartridge straight in the headshell is just a quick way to get in the ballpark. A Baerwald alignment will be close to 2 mm longer than a Stevenson alignment, and who knows what alignment some manufacturers use. I like Baerwald, but Stevenson might be better for those inner grooves of long records, because it uses an inner null point that is closer to the spindle. Cheers, Alec I have been waiting for this response for 16 months. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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