Advice Needed - Buying Records on eBay (Iron Maiden - ish).

[just a normal guy kevin]

I would call PayPal and calmly and clearly explain your situation- items not as described, seller has mildly threatened to not approve a refund if the items aren't as he originally described. Your main point should be "How do I avoid a situation where the seller claims that the items are switched out or not in their original condition?"

I'd avoid eBay altogether as their customer support is almost all outsourced and there is a language barrier. I'd also make peace with you having to pay return shipping. I don't know any method of forcing the seller to pay return shipping if they don't want to.

Next time, don't buy if the price is too good to be true. Just save up for good quality copies from reputable sellers at appropriate prices. Good luck and update us here.

[redsonja]

Bake, thanks, that's good advice. Though I still can't justify the postage ... I guess I should do the maths on that one. I'm still unsure if he'll actually refund the money after receiving them though - how does this work with Paypal?

[just a normal guy kevin]

You open a claim with PayPal.

 

The seller has a few days or so to respond/settle the issue with you amicably OR he can ask PayPal to escalate the claim.  If he doesn't respond at all, it will automatically escalate after a few days of no contact or decision on his end.

 

After the claim is escalated, the seller is given three options: refund your money immediately with no return, agree to refund your money after a return, or (I think) they can choose to refuse the refund and provide a reason why (and I think PayPal can look into it further).

 

Usually, the seller will choose #2.  That immediately notifies you to pack your order, purchase a tracked shipping label through PayPal (or supply a tracking number purchased at the post office), and ship the item.

 

Once the item's tracking shows "Delivered", the seller is given the option to process the refund.  I believe he can, at this point, say the items were tampered with or are not the same items if he wanted to and report this to PayPal instead of processing the refund- which is what I think your main concern would be when talking to PayPal.  

 

Unless the person is insane or crazy, they will approve the refund at that step and you'll get your money.  Either way, you should be OK if you reach out to PayPal first and ask them for advice on how to avoid that potential scenario that he hinted at (saying the records better be in EX condition).  They should have some sort of safeguard that favors the buyer that will protect you from that kind of retaliatory feet dragging.

 

Be calm and ask questions and the person on the phone should be more than happy to give you a road map of what to do to be most protected.  They've always been super nice and helpful with me in the past.

[redsonja]

That sounds like the way to go, thanks so much for the advice I'll post back and let you know how it goes!

[circuit bored records]

I often expect records to be overgraded nowadays, and have many a time received records listed as NM that look closer to VG. But that's why I invested in a nice RCM. Sucks, but what can ya do? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[redsonja]

Nice Shinigami (sp?). Yep, I've learned that the hard way I guess - but what I don't get is the sheer amount of people who leave positive feedback? I won't keep any vinyl that is in less than EX condition, just because I know I won't enjoy it. I really can't get into the heads of the sellers who grade like that and then say 'well, I stand by my grading'. Insane.

[circuit bored records]

Eh, I'll leave positive feedback almost always for the seller unless something is grossly overgraded and downright unplayable after multiple attempts at a vacuum cleaning. I clean records that look near mint anyway as I don't know how dirty someone's stylus is that last played the record and that's not something you can visibly see and probably will have a bigger impact on sound quality than some dust on the record.

I don't consider someone grading NM or VG+ when it's actually VG deserving of negative feedback. I give most people the benefit of the doubt and think they are just ignorant to collectors grading or only looking at the vinyl and not actually listening to it. I do not believe there are a ton of sellers out there who are maliciously listing records as NM to get top dollar, although there may be a small percentage out there who are. A lot of people now are just trying to capitalize on the resurgence of the vinyl format and selling records they've had sitting in storage for years..maybe they haven't even looked at them in a very long time. 10 years ago, you could find those iron maiden records in dollar bins across the globe in great condition..

As long as it cleans up okay and I'm able to listen to it the seller gets a positive from me.

[itsgoodtobefree]

Yep, I've learned that the hard way I guess - but what I don't get is the sheer amount of people who leave positive feedback?

 

The problem is that according to eBay and Discogs feedback guidelines, sellers don't deserve negative feedback if they work out the situation for a buyer. For instance, I buy a record graded NM, it comes G+, I complain, and the seller gives me a discount or refund so I leave positive feedback. This is problematic because a seller could always undergrade records and have 100% positive feedback as long as they work it out with the buyer. Obviously there are oversights and genuine mistakes that sellers make when grading records, so at least it's good for that.

 

I don't consider someone grading NM or VG+ when it's actually VG deserving of negative feedback. I give most people the benefit of the doubt and think they are just ignorant to collectors grading or only looking at the vinyl and not actually listening to it. I do not believe there are a ton of sellers out there who are maliciously listing records as NM to get top dollar, although there may be a small percentage out there who are. A lot of people now are just trying to capitalize on the resurgence of the vinyl format and selling records they've had sitting in storage for years..maybe they haven't even looked at them in a very long time. 10 years ago, you could find those iron maiden records in dollar bins across the globe in great condition..

 

It's annoying because most times you are paying a premium for that VG+ or NM record. If I pay $10 extra for that near mint grading and it shows up VG+, that's not right. Yes, as I mentioned earlier there are genuine mistakes and oversights, but you know there have to be sellers out there that always overgrade records because they know most people won't challenge them. I know I don't. I can live with a VG+ record but if I ever get a VG record I think I would complain -- that's just too much of a downgrade. 

[just a normal guy kevin]

eBay and Discogs policy is that you can't leave negative feedback if a seller accepts a return?

[itsgoodtobefree]

I remember reading somewhere on Discogs that said a buyer should not get negative feedback if the issue has been resolved. It might have been on the forums though, not sure. 

[NapalmBrain]

80 euros for 12 records is a great deal, overgrading sucks but it seems like it's $15 a piece just for our mediocre US pressings in VG+. I can understand your frustration though being told these were going to be virtually perfect

[One Hundred Fifty-Two]

Op is not someone I would be friends with irl

[just a normal guy kevin]

Yeah.  Imagine how annoying it would be to sell some over-graded records to a friend and then have the friend ask for their money back.  It's like, is this a community of record lovers who never bug sellers ever or a soul-less corporation that only cares about money and grading and commerce???

[redsonja]

Op is not someone I would be friends with irl

Trust me; it's mutual

[redsonja]

For me the bottom line is this: no-one likes getting ripped off. £80 for twelve records might seem like a good deal, but if most of them are unplayable without constant noise and distortion, then all I've bought is a pile of crap. It's not just the odd hairline I'm talking about in this case - I could definitely live with that if it was. I even asked the guy to listen to them before he sent them out, so we weren't both wasting our time, and he told me that he'd listened to several and they were immaculate, and that I shouldn't be concerned because they're 'in A1 condition'.

 

I wouldn't buy a car from a retailer only to discover that it didn't work properly, and the same goes for records. Why should buyers be left in a 'well, I told you so' position, when the seller has either lied or is totally not competent enough to grade records in the first place. I mean, I'm no audiophile (!!). I've only being listening to records for the majority of a year, and that's no time at all, and even I know the difference. But if something is advertised as 'meticulously looked after', and in 'NM' condition, and then you contact the seller - who refer to themselves as a company with an 'office' selling 'top notch vinyl at affordable prices' - and that seller tells you that they don't even need cleaning becasue they're in 'amazing condition', and then you get said records and they look like a piece of shit, well, that's what pisses me off.

 

Rant over

[bigdz68]

Do yourself a favor and get a record cleaning machine....whether its a nitty gritty vpi okki nikki or a fancy new ultrasonic model....it will clean all that crap off even the newest vinyl which is covered in junk straight from the factory...its worth the time and effort

[redsonja]

Thanks bigdz, I'm really starting to consider it. What do you think to this one?

 

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B000BFXIVW?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=ox_sc_sfl_title_20&smid=AISL47LDQPERB

[bigdz68]

Never heard of that brand. It looks similar to a spin clean though. Not sure what your budget is but I can tell you I went the whole spin clean route and didn't like the process so I went to a vpi 16.5

They can always be found used and so can nitty gritty machines....do some reading and check locally. Just depends on your budget. I spent a few weeks deciding what to go with....tbey all do the same thing basically just different methods. Some folk stick to a brush and swear by it but my ears hear the difference especially on soundtracks and jazz albums....anyways just my 2 cents! Hope everything works out with your eBay purchase. When it comes to buying used I tend to go to a store so I don't deal with the whole eBay nitemare! But I also live in California with half a dozen shops within a short distance so I am spoiled....

[redsonja]

Hey, thanks, I will do. I'll check that out too for sure.

I live in England these days, and where I am the record stores are pretty limited. There's only one in my area, and it's pretty crappy (though oddly has a great reputation so I've heard). The owner wanted to give me £3 for EX + copies of Bat Out of Hell 2, Bon Jovi's Cross Road double vinyl, and an EX- copy of Seventh Son.

That's £1 per record.

When I told him that I'd rather just hang on to them, he just turned back to the counter and ignored me.

The next time I was in there he had a copy of Bat Out of Hell 2, in VG+ condition (I gave it a quick listen on the store TT - crackles and pops, and it's a pretty naff sounding LP anyway), and it was priced at £25!

[NapalmBrain]

spin clean is the way to go if you are on a budget otherwise a nitty gritty or vpi works wonders. I've had experience with all. Obviously the vacuum cleaners are superior, but the spin clean gets similar results, but drying the records is much more time consuming. I currently have a spin clean, and I use it all the time. Wish I could afford a VPI though

[redsonja]

Hey, thanks Napalm, I guess it looks like I'm getting a spinclean then!

[allenh]

Thanks bigdz, I'm really starting to consider it. What do you think to this one?

 

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B000BFXIVW?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=ox_sc_sfl_title_20&smid=AISL47LDQPERB

 

Those are ok but to get them properly clean you need a vacuum Machine as the vacuum can remove the dirt where the bath type ones can sometimes just move it about, the most cost effective if in the UK is the Okki Nokki.

 

That said a couple of things spring to mind from your posts.

 

1) If you're buying 2nd hand vinyl get a good vacuum cleaning machine, it will pay for itself pretty quickly, also get some form of static removal device like a Zerostat (you can make one from a cooker lighter that is just the sparker not a gas lighter), also a good stylus brush and stylus cleaning fluid.

 

2) Vinyl buying can be a minefield, by it's nature its perishable and attracts dirt and static with every play, plus a lot of people who have no idea what they are looking at are selling records.

 

3) The crackling will be static and probably dirt but some of that 80's vinyl was just dirty sounding from new unfortunately.

 

4) It's always a good idea to ask people what they play their records on as it can make a big difference and more so now with the amount of rubbish tables on the market. Historically metal records didn't get played on very good turntables back in the 70's, 80's and 90's etc and you are playing them on a good table with an elliptical stylus. The issue here is that two records visually can look absolutely the same but the one played with a normal conical stylus will sound absolutely rubbish on your Rega and still sound Ok on the cheap crap table. Also those cheap crap tables and styli will pack the dirt right into the grooves but still look fine and it's a bugger to get out.

 

5) A seller selling a lot of records will mostly grade visually on lower priced records if not most so ask that question as well and then all of point 4 applies.

 

6) I only tend to buy new records from ebay but when I do buy 2nd hand records from ebay I base the deal on the purchase price so If I bought £80 worth of records that would have been 3 or more times that is the description was accurate and what turned up was £80 worth of records that were visually ok I would just clean them and not worry too much, but if they were still bad after cleaning then I would complain. Other than that I buy from Discogs and have still had the odd problem there but you can't beat inspecting them yourself so I prefer record fairs and 2nd hand shops (probably because I'm old people) but you can still get caught there, occupational hazard I'm afraid.

 

7) In the UK we use the Record Collector grading system that is based on Goldmine but not exactly the same and the records you describe sound like mostly VG after a vacuum clean with some being VG+

 

One last thing if you really want a clean record then the best option is the wood glue method, it's time consuming, can be messy, won't fix damage but was pioneered by the BBC who know a little bit about sound and will get a record cleaner than any other method, it's pointless on something that just needs a wet/vacuum clean but for the really stubborn crap it's the dogs wobbly bits.

[TheGhostOfRandySavage]

I keep telling people about the KAB EV-1 it's a vacuum record cleaner on the cheap

[bigdz68]

I keep telling people about the KAB EV-1 it's a vacuum record cleaner on the cheap

Ya this is also another option for the OP! I would save the money up instead of the spin clean since drying is a pain in the ass! If you buy lots of used vinyl and have a decent setup it will do wonders...

[allenh]

I keep telling people about the KAB EV-1 it's a vacuum record cleaner on the cheap

 

Sadly it's not easy to get if not impossible from a UK stockist so you have to get one from the US and it's isn't without some little faults, but if you don't mind importing one yourself it is good value even with the customs duty.