There Will Be Hell Toupée! (The Donald Trump Thread)

[WAXXX]

the thread has been civil and pretty mild. and it's not ignorance when i attempt to use the best scientific information at my disposal to support an argument that involves generalizations of a group of people. it's called research. 

there's a difference between "picking a fight" and engaging in rational intercourse that stems from disagreement.

however, i'll back off the religion bit so we can get our focus back on MAKING AMERICA GREAT AGAIN.

[TheGhostOfRandySavage]

17 minutes ago, WAXXX said:

the thread has been civil and pretty mild. and it's not ignorance when i attempt to use the best scientific information at my disposal to support an argument that involves generalizations of a group of people. it's called research. 

there's a difference between "picking a fight" and engaging in rational intercourse that stems from disagreement.

however, i'll back off the religion bit so we can get our focus back on MAKING AMERICA GREAT AGAIN.

I was referring to you trying to pick a fight with me over my alleged "modding," and wasn't necessarily referring to you with the ignorance comment.

[WAXXX]

Just now, The Ghost of Randy Savage said:

I was referring to you trying to pick a fight with me over my alleged "modding," and wasn't necessarily referring to you with the ignorance comment.

wasn't trying to pick a fight. just a combination of caffeine, testosterone, and a long day at work. you seem like a pretty level-headed VCer. 

[TheGhostOfRandySavage]

6 minutes ago, WAXXX said:

wasn't trying to pick a fight. just a combination of caffeine, testosterone, and a long day at work. you seem like a pretty level-headed VCer. 

[WAXXX]

haha. 

[Youinreverse]

15 minutes ago, WAXXX said:

wasn't trying to pick a fight. just a combination of caffeine, testosterone, and a long day at work. you seem like a pretty level-headed VCer. 

[kgry]

Just wanted to say I'm enjoying this thread. Lots of great opinions from intelligent people. Being serious here. I've learned a lot from all sides of all opinions. It's opened my mind up to new things.

 

It also took me 10 minutes to figure out how to post this image with this new board shit.

 

[Mars]

18 hours ago, WAXXX said:

don't equate my dislike of sharia law with support of christianity or the bible. i agree that plenty of things in the bible are barbaric and outdated, which is why i support separation of church and state.

the only thing my comment smacks of is dat ass. joking aside, your average everyday muslim does not support basic human rights for all people due to the fact that the majority of muslims support sharia law. sharia law does not guarantee basic rights to all people. you will know what actual bigotry is when you are a woman or LGBT person living in an area dominated by your average everyday muslim.

no one in this thread is saying that muslims don't deserve basic rights as humans. that's absurd. 

 

I wasn't assuming your support of christianity or the bible and what I said did not indicate that.  My point was that your average everyday christian would claim to believe in the bible and follow the 'word of the lord', but in reality the large majority do not actually believe in the barbaric and outdated bullshit therein. I would argue that the same could be said for the average muslim American. That is what I meant by religious dogma =/= to personal and/or cultural identity.

 

Also, I didn’t say anything about ‘basic human rights’.  In the context of the conversation (this is the Trump thread), I was thinking of the rights of Muslim Americans should Trump get elected, based on the comments he has made.  Trump's comments lead me to believe that these muslims' rights as Americans are in danger, that is not to say anything of their basic human rights.

 

 

There are plenty of ‘christians’ that don’t support LGBT lifestyles and some that actively speak out against it.  For that matter there is a strong republican contingent that is both homophobic and misogynistic.  You do not need to be in an area dominated by your average everyday muslim to experience ‘actual bigotry’ and I take issue with the argument that people are more likely to experience bigotry in a muslim dominated area than they are in many other 'average' towns in the US. 

 

12 hours ago, WAXXX said:

and it's not ignorance when i attempt to use the best scientific information at my disposal to support an argument that involves generalizations of a group of people. it's called research.

 

I disagree with making gross over-generalizations based on some statistical evidence that you found online.  While pew research may be a reliable and relatively unbiased source, there is a danger to blindly believing these stats.  What is the sample size? Who was surveyed?  What methods were used to survey?  Most importantly, how can we say that it is large enough or wide enough to accurately represent the whole population of Muslims?  I don’t believe we can. 

17 hours ago, WAXXX said:

also, a reminder that personal anecdotes and experiences are not necessarily indicative of larger, generalized, more global trends.

 

Again, I disagree. You should not minimize personal interactions and experience with actual people as ‘anecdotes’, and then dismiss them as irrelevant.

As well, in the context of this conversation, I believe that the focus is, or at least should be on Muslim Americans. How Muslim Americans that we know treat us and others has great bearing on the conversation.

 

I agree with this:

17 hours ago, NapalmBrain said:

seconded and the post 9/11 climate has only nurtured a mentality of acceptance in muslim americans. The oppressed rarely lash out towards other small groups when they know the feeling of discrimination. I mean my sample size is also small, but I've yet to meet any that follow sharia law as strictly as christians I've met who follow the bible's teachings

15 hours ago, himynameisShane said:

There are some shitty Muslims.

There are some shitty Christians.

There are some shitty people.

 

It be nice if we could live together without making someone feel less for what they believe. It be nice if we could all understand where someone is coming from and try to understand why they believe whatever it is they believe, without telling them they are wrong. Just because we don't agree with someone else, doesn't make them wrong. And that goes both ways.  

 

14 hours ago, The Ghost of Randy Savage said:

...Religion is always going to be a point of contention for a lot of people, and while most folks of any religion are decent enough, yes there are radicals out there.

People keep grouping in radicals with "your everyday ____" in here though.

I'm fine with having a discussion, but there is no need to ...group entire religions together based on the actions and beliefs of a small portion of people (which is also happening here).

Agreed. As it has been said many times by several people in this thread there are ‘radicals’ in several different religious and political groups.  They do not represent the behaviours of the majority of people.

 

[GatorPrideSONNN]

All's I am saying is that I am glad Obama is about to be gone. I am also not sure what kind of lies Hillary has up her skirt. She carries lies like Trump carries racist ties, LOL!

[WAXXX]

1 hour ago, Mars said:

1. My point was that your average everyday christian would claim to believe in the bible and follow the 'word of the lord', but in reality the large majority do not actually believe in the barbaric and outdated bullshit therein. I would argue that the same could be said for the average muslim American. 

2. Trump's comments lead me to believe that these muslims' rights as Americans are in danger, that is not to say anything of their basic human rights.

3. You do not need to be in an area dominated by your average everyday muslim to experience ‘actual bigotry’ and I take issue with the argument that people are more likely to experience bigotry in a muslim dominated area than they are in many other 'average' towns in the US. 

4. I disagree with making gross over-generalizations based on some statistical evidence that you found online.  While pew research may be a reliable and relatively unbiased source, there is a danger to blindly believing these stats.  What is the sample size? Who was surveyed?  What methods were used to survey?  Most importantly, how can we say that it is large enough or wide enough to accurately represent the whole population of Muslims?  I don’t believe we can. 

5. You should not minimize personal interactions and experience with actual people as ‘anecdotes’, and then dismiss them as irrelevant.

1. you argue that the same could be said for your average muslim american, yet provide no source or information that I can evaluate to come to a similar conclusion.

2. which comments by TRUMP exactly? i've heard him advocate a ban on muslim asylum seekers until their backgrounds check out, but haven't seen anything that would indicate he would infringe on the rights of muslim americans, or muslims who've passed background checks and enter the USA legally.

3. you should take issue with it. it's a real issue. however, most average towns in the USA cannot and won't adopt aggressive policies like sharia law, which is real persecution, not just bigotry.

4. discrediting some of the only science we have available on the topic and arriving at the conclusion that it isn't good enough when you admit you haven't even personally looked into methods that pew used to put together the statistics is well... it's ignorant. if you looked in the footnotes and traced down the methods like i did, you would have seen that just for sub-sahara Africa alone, The Pew Charitable Trusts and the John Templeton Foundation, conducted a major public opinion survey involving more than 25,000 face-to-face interviews in more than 60 languages or dialects in 19 countries (source: http://www.pewforum.org/files/2010/04/sub-saharan-africa-preface.pdf). i agree that blindly believing in anything can be dangerous.

5. i never said they were irrelevant, just think they are statistically less significant and not necessarily indicative of larger trends. i don't understand why you would downplay a survey involving more than 25,000 face-to-face interviews in more than 60 languages or dialects in 19 countries, while amplifying the significance of individual anecdotes and experiences.

[BuzzersonKillwell]

For the life of me I can't figure out what your actual point is. I even read all the posts.

[nancy_raygun]

1 hour ago, GatorPrideSONNN said:

All's I am saying is that I am glad Obama is about to be gone. I am also not sure what kind of lies Hillary has up her skirt. She carries lies like Trump carries racist ties, LOL!

Yes, I also hate affordable health care, regulation on wall street investment firms, making it illegal to torture prisoners, investment into renewable energy, and stem cell research.  Obama was the worst.

[WAXXX]

20 minutes ago, BuzzersonKillwell said:

For the life of me I can't figure out what your actual point is. I even read all the posts.

it should be totally obvious: MAKING AMERICA GREAT AGAIN.

it's distressing that most of the anti-TRUMP rhetoric is based on anecdotes and feelings, while seriously lacking in substance and reality. this annoys me so i just personally chime in. for me, being pro-TRUMP right now is more fun than being anti-TRUMP.

i'm not even convinced i'll be voting for TRUMP. i'm not a conservative and i think it's ridiculous that people think that a single person should be trusted, or is even capable, of making decisions for the good of all mankind (or womankind, or transkind, or otherkind). 

at the end of the day i think it has to be people (us) that choose to MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN.

[BuzzersonKillwell]

Sure. Fine. You're free to support and extol the virtues of any candidate you choose. But what does that have to do with Pew's research on Asian and African muslims? 

[WAXXX]

1 minute ago, BuzzersonKillwell said:

Sure. Fine. You're free to support and extol the virtues of any candidate you choose. But what does that have to do with Pew's research on Asian and African muslims? 

islam is the dominant religion in the middle east, north africa, as well as some parts of asia (particularly the regions close to the middle east and southeast asia). it is also the fastest growing religion in the world. many people in this thread were stating that your average muslim is pretty peaceful and accepting of others, that only a tiny percentage of muslims (extreme ones) were bigoted, and that the muslims they've met personally were more tolerant than the christians they know.

however, pew's global survey research on muslims shows that the opposite is true on a global scale. particularly in africa, asia, and the middle east (where 82%+ of the world's muslim population resides) their findings indicate that the majority of muslims aren't actually that accepting of others. large majorities support sharia law as the revealed word of god and would prefer that sharia law rule as law of the land. additionally, they found that your average muslim believed sharia law should be applied to non-muslims as well.

many people (from the USA i assume) stated that they know great muslims, as they should because WE HAVE THE BEST MUSLIMS. however, only .005% of the world's muslim population lives the USA, so i didn't think their personal experiences with muslims in the USA were indicative of the larger, more global trends of islam.

this all started when the thread got a little off-topic (from MAKING AMERICA GREAT AGAIN) when @thefavoriteplay stated he couldn't understand why most liberals (a generalization of course) are so defending of muslims when it would appear they would have little common ground due to their diametrically opposed world views (very traditional vs progressive thought). 

i brought up the pew research because it was the best science i could find that addressed the impact of islam on a global scale.

islam was relevant to this thread because TRUMP has made some remarks on islam and advocates strong background checks on muslim immigrants (immigration being a central issue for some in regards to the upcoming USA presidential election).

let me know if anything is still unclear to you.

 

 

[Mars]

47 minutes ago, WAXXX said:

1. you argue that the same could be said for your average muslim american, yet provide no source or information that I can evaluate to come to a similar conclusion.

2. which comments by TRUMP exactly? i've heard him advocate a ban on muslim asylum seekers until their backgrounds check out, but haven't seen anything that would indicate he would infringe on the rights of muslim americans, or muslims who've passed background checks and enter the USA legally.

3. you should take issue with it. it's a real issue. however, most average towns in the USA cannot and won't adopt aggressive policies like sharia law, which is real persecution, not just bigotry.

4. discrediting some of the only science we have available on the topic and arriving at the conclusion that it isn't good enough when you admit you haven't even personally looked into methods that pew used to put together the statistics is well... it's ignorant. if you looked in the footnotes and traced down the methods like i did, you would have seen that just for sub-sahara Africa alone, The Pew Charitable Trusts and the John Templeton Foundation, conducted a major public opinion survey involving more than 25,000 face-to-face interviews in more than 60 languages or dialects in 19 countries (source: http://www.pewforum.org/files/2010/04/sub-saharan-africa-preface.pdf). i agree that blindly believing in anything can be dangerous.

5. i never said they were irrelevant, just think they are statistically less significant and not necessarily indicative of larger trends. i don't understand why you would downplay a survey involving more than 25,000 face-to-face interviews in more than 60 languages or dialects in 19 countries, while amplifying the significance of individual anecdotes and experiences.

1. Since you seem to like the pew surveys:

This, which focuses on US muslims, tells quite a different story than the one you are claiming is widespread: http://www.people-press.org/2011/08/30/muslim-americans-no-signs-of-growth-in-alienation-or-support-for-extremism/

 

http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-overview/:

In other areas, however, there is less unity. For instance, a Pew Research Center survey of Muslims in 39 countries asked Muslims whether they want sharia law, a legal code based on the Quran and other Islamic scripture, to be the official law of the land in their country. Responses on this question vary widely. Nearly all Muslims in Afghanistan (99%) and most in Iraq (91%) and Pakistan (84%) support sharia law as official law. But in some other countries, especially in Eastern Europe and Central Asia – including Turkey (12%), Kazakhstan (10%) and Azerbaijan (8%) – relatively few favor the implementation of sharia law.

 

http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-overview/:
"Moreover, Muslims are not equally comfortable with all aspects of sharia: While most favor using religious law in family and property disputes, fewer support the application of severe punishments – such as whippings or cutting off hands – in criminal cases. The survey also shows that Muslims differ widely in how they interpret certain aspects of sharia, including whether divorce and family planning are morally acceptable."

 

But really, I would point the most of the 1.8 million muslim Americans living in the country in peace as support.

 

2. Trump has made comments about requiring current muslim americans to register, wear identification badges, and be subject to surveillance,.  He has also suggested shutting down mosques and deporting muslims.

'We need surveillance. You need to deal with the mosques, whether you like it or not. We have to be smart, we have to be vigilant."

“We have a problem in this country.  It’s called Muslims. We know our current president is one.  You know he’s not even an American....

That’s my question: When can we get rid of them?”

 

3.Again, we are talking about muslims living in the US - they can't and won't adopt these aggressive policies.  I'll refer you back to my first link under #1 above. There is plenty in there that claims US muslims do not agree with nor support violence and do not want to adopt the polices that you point to as your reason to suggest they don't support basic human rights .

 

4.  I wasn't discrediting the pew survey, I was raising some valid questions about the data, and cautioning against putting too much weight into the statistics.

First of all, a survey is not "science".  Second, there are 1.7 billion muslims in the world.  a survey of 25,000 represents 0.0015% of that population.
Asking questions is not ignorant, but taking statistics from a relatively small sampling of the overall population of muslims in a survey conducted 6 years ago, then using them as the basis of your views of 23% of the earth's population is questionable, if not ignorant to me.

 

[WAXXX]

2 minutes ago, Mars said:

1. Since you seem to like the pew surveys:

This, which focuses on US muslims, tells quite a different story than the one you are claiming is widespread: http://www.people-press.org/2011/08/30/muslim-americans-no-signs-of-growth-in-alienation-or-support-for-extremism/

 

http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-overview/:

In other areas, however, there is less unity. For instance, a Pew Research Center survey of Muslims in 39 countries asked Muslims whether they want sharia law, a legal code based on the Quran and other Islamic scripture, to be the official law of the land in their country. Responses on this question vary widely. Nearly all Muslims in Afghanistan (99%) and most in Iraq (91%) and Pakistan (84%) support sharia law as official law. But in some other countries, especially in Eastern Europe and Central Asia – including Turkey (12%), Kazakhstan (10%) and Azerbaijan (8%) – relatively few favor the implementation of sharia law.

 

http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-overview/:
"Moreover, Muslims are not equally comfortable with all aspects of sharia: While most favor using religious law in family and property disputes, fewer support the application of severe punishments – such as whippings or cutting off hands – in criminal cases. The survey also shows that Muslims differ widely in how they interpret certain aspects of sharia, including whether divorce and family planning are morally acceptable."

 

But really, I would point the most of the 1.8 million muslim Americans living in the country in peace as support.

 

2. Trump has made comments about requiring current muslim americans to register, wear identification badges, and be subject to surveillance,.  He has also suggested shutting down mosques and deporting muslims.

'We need surveillance. You need to deal with the mosques, whether you like it or not. We have to be smart, we have to be vigilant."

 

“We have a problem in this country.  It’s called Muslims. We know our current president is one.  You know he’s not even an American....

 

That’s my question: When can we get rid of them?”

 

3.Again, we are talking about muslims living in the US - they can't and won't adopt these aggressive policies.  I'll refer you back to my first link under #1 above. There is plenty in there that claims US muslims do not agree with nor support violence and do not want to adopt the polices that you point to as your reason to suggest they don't support basic human rights .

 

4.  I wasn't discrediting the pew survey, I was raising some valid questions about the data, and cautioning against putting too much weight into the statistics.

First of all, a survey is not "science".  Second, there are 1.7 billion muslims in the world.  a survey of 25,000 represents 0.0015% of that population.
Asking questions is not ignorant, but taking statistics from a relatively small sampling of the overall population of muslims in a survey conducted 6 years ago, then using them as the basis of your views of 23% of the earth's population is questionable, if not ignorant to me.

 

muslims in the USA make up .005% of the world's muslim population. their opinions are not indicative of global trends. i agree that WE HAVE THE BEST MUSLIMS.

trump says stupid things, i agree, but some of the things you mentioned he didn't actually say, like requiring muslims to wear identification badges. if you can link video/audio to his actual comments it would be appreciated, as CNN likes spin stuff he says into clickbait. i also interpret a lot of it as trolling and hyperbole just to get people riled up.

again, i'm not focusing specifically on muslims in the USA, as they are only .005% of the world's fastest growing religion.

lastly, there are such things as scientific surveys. if me using a scientific survey to back up a point is ignorant because of the sample size, then you are equally as ignorant for using muslims in the USA (.005% of the muslim population) to back up a point. 

[BuzzersonKillwell]

1 hour ago, WAXXX said:

islam is the dominant religion in the middle east, north africa, as well as some parts of asia (particularly the regions close to the middle east and southeast asia). it is also the fastest growing religion in the world. many people in this thread were stating that your average muslim is pretty peaceful and accepting of others, that only a tiny percentage of muslims (extreme ones) were bigoted, and that the muslims they've met personally were more tolerant than the christians they know.

however, pew's global survey research on muslims shows that the opposite is true on a global scale. particularly in africa, asia, and the middle east (where 82%+ of the world's muslim population resides) their findings indicate that the majority of muslims aren't actually that accepting of others. large majorities support sharia law as the revealed word of god and would prefer that sharia law rule as law of the land. additionally, they found that your average muslim believed sharia law should be applied to non-muslims as well.

many people (from the USA i assume) stated that they know great muslims, as they should because WE HAVE THE BEST MUSLIMS. however, only .005% of the world's muslim population lives the USA, so i didn't think their personal experiences with muslims in the USA were indicative of the larger, more global trends of islam.

this all started when the thread got a little off-topic (from MAKING AMERICA GREAT AGAIN) when @thefavoriteplay stated he couldn't understand why most liberals (a generalization of course) are so defending of muslims when it would appear they would have little common ground due to their diametrically opposed world views (very traditional vs progressive thought). 

i brought up the pew research because it was the best science i could find that addressed the impact of islam on a global scale.

islam was relevant to this thread because TRUMP has made some remarks on islam and advocates strong background checks on muslim immigrants (immigration being a central issue for some in regards to the upcoming USA presidential election).

let me know if anything is still unclear to you.

 

 

Your position is that Pew data is evidence that the world Muslim population is neither peaceful nor accepting of others and the majority of Muslims, taken on a global scale, are bigoted? The point of sharing that knowledge is to help others, VC members in this case, better understand that their anecdotal experiences with domestic Muslims have potentially given them the wrong idea about the faith and by extension, the people that practice it. 

[Mars]

51 minutes ago, WAXXX said:

muslims in the USA make up .005% of the world's muslim population. their opinions are not indicative of global trends. i agree that WE HAVE THE BEST MUSLIMS.

trump says stupid things, i agree, but some of the things you mentioned he didn't actually say, like requiring muslims to wear identification badges. if you can link video/audio to his actual comments it would be appreciated, as CNN likes spin stuff he says into clickbait. i also interpret a lot of it as trolling and hyperbole just to get people riled up.

again, i'm not focusing specifically on muslims in the USA, as they are only .005% of the world's fastest growing religion.

lastly, there are such things as scientific surveys. if me using a scientific survey to back up a point is ignorant because of the sample size, then you are equally as ignorant for using muslims in the USA (.005% of the muslim population) to back up a point. 

The point that you are trying to back up is that the average everyday muslim does not support basic human rights and you are using that survey as evidence that this point is true. I disagree that you can leap to the conclusion that the average muslim (i.e. all muslims that are not extremists) does not support basic human rights based on that survey data.

 

Beyond that, it seems that we are debating different things, as I was focusing on muslims in the US, and when I was referring to the average muslim, I was thinking of those with which us in North America interact.  The reason that this was my focus is because I was speaking out against the idea that when Liberals are defending muslims, they are defending radical muslims, and I was voicing my concern that their rights could be in danger if Trump were elected. Comments such as these raise my concern for the loss of rights:

4 minutes ago, BuzzersonKillwell said:

Your position is that Pew data is evidence that the world Muslim population is neither peaceful nor accepting of others and the majority of Muslims, taken on a global scale, are bigoted? The point of sharing that knowledge is to help others, VC members in this case, better understand that their anecdotal experiences with domestic Muslim's have potentially given them the wrong idea about the faith and by extension, the people that practice it. 

Exactly.

 

[Bladewillisisdead]

For the record I think all religion, on a global/cultural/societal/whatever scale is bad and harmful. BUT I think basic human rights should extend to all people.

[WAXXX]

10 minutes ago, Mars said:

Comments such as these raise my concern for the loss of rights:

 

i'm pro-privacy and against unnecessary surveillance and "big brother" type government.

however, i had to listen to the beginning of the clip like 10 times just to understand what the interviewer was asking. at first i though he said, "do you think there should be a database that tracks the muslims entering this country." on repeated listens it sounds more like, "do you think there should be a database on muslims here in this country." it's possible TRUMP heard the same thing i did on first listen? if that's the case then it's not that disconcerting. we already track whoever enters or leaves the country legally in a database anyway (passports, customs, visas, etc.).

even if that's not the case, we are supposed to already have a database on everyone and their religion and ethnicity. it's the job of the US Census Bureau, they just do it poorly. i agree that talking about having databases on people does sound pretty "big brother," however we have already reached that point here in the USA for muslims and non-muslims alike. if you have a drivers license, have a passport, have a legal job, pay taxes, fill out a census form, register for government benefits, go to the hospital, get married, have insurance, etc... you're in a database somewhere.

 

20 minutes ago, Mars said:

The point that you are trying to back up is that the average everyday muslim does not support basic human rights

more that the average everyday muslim supports sharia law, which happens to have very harmful ramifications for women, LGBT people, and people in general. it's not progressive and is straight from the middle ages. as you mentioned, not every country and not every muslim has the same views on sharia law, but the numbers in the pew research were staggeringly shocking to me on the percentages for those who supported it. sharia law is what leads to public executions, people getting their hands chopped off, women getting stoned for being gang-raped, gays getting stoned/flogged, etc. i agree that not all muslims are the same, but i found it completely crazy that so many muslims globally (based again on the pew research) seemed to support this kind of logic (sharia law).

 

38 minutes ago, BuzzersonKillwell said:

Your position is that Pew data is evidence that the majority of the world's Muslim population are not that accepting of others (especially women / LGBT) based on their overwhelming support for sharia law. The point of sharing that knowledge is to help others, VC members in this case, better understand that their anecdotal experiences with Muslims in the USA have potentially given them the wrong idea about the faith and by extension, the people that practice it globally. 

FTFY. yes.

[WAXXX]

42 minutes ago, Bladewillisisdead said:

For the record I think all religion, on a global/cultural/societal/whatever scale is bad and harmful. BUT I think basic human rights should extend to all people.

even church of the flying spaghetti monster?

[Bladewillisisdead]

27 minutes ago, WAXXX said:

even church of the flying spaghetti monster?

More like Church of the Smug Nerd

[WAXXX]

Just now, Bladewillisisdead said:

More like Church of the Smug Nerd

MUCH PASTA TO YOU KIND SIR!

[¯\_(ツ)_/¯]

25,000 is enough of a sample if its truely a random sample for a study of millions, let alone billions.  664 is the most you need for a 99% confidence, but it has to be truly random sample for that to work.