How can I improve my setup?

[tokimedo]

Hey guys,

 

I have this setup, and it doesnt sound much better than streaming on spotify. I suspect its cause my receiver cant hang, but if you could please let me know how I could improve to make the sound quality better, id appreciate it!  Should I get an external amp? 

 

 

DENON AVR X4100W - receiver

Pro-Ject Debut Carbon Esprit SB (DC)   - Record player 

MartinLogan ElectroMotion® ESL - Speakers

 

 

 

 

 

any and all advice/help is appreciated greatly. thank you in advance. 

Edited September 27, 2016 by tokimedo

[Tardcore]

Usually people will recommend to ditch the AVR, but that particular AVR is the Denon equivalent to the Marantz SR7009.  It should at least be competent.

I'd start with going through your Turntable setup to confirm everything is in order there.  

[ajxd]

I could be wrong, but the MLs need a LOT of room. More space behind and to the sides.

Also the TT... what cart?

[kannibal]

Are you comparing record playback and Spotify playback through the same AVR, speaker wire, and speakers? 

 

If so, to improve source audio you need to look at what's in front of the shared components. So in this case, phono preamp, turntable, and cartridge. If you are using the built-in phono pre, I would suggest trying a stand alone. I would also suggest trying a new cartridge if you are using stock or 2M. Pick one or the other, but buy from somewhere with a good return or exchange policy, in case you aren't satisfied with the results. This doesn't necessarily mean that what you have is bad, it just might sound good to you. 

 

All that being said, I can't understate the importance of a great source. A lot of modern pressings just plain aren't that great, and may even be cut from the exact same file you're streaming on Spotify. I am currently taking a hard look at my record collection after mixed experiences with various vintage, reissued, and new pressings.

 

Hope me you can figure out improvements for yourself. 

[bjorn]

Not sure how good the phono pre in that receiver is; might be worth upgrading. Also, I agree with adjusting the placement of your speakers.

Edited September 27, 2016 by bjorn

[allenh]

Could be many things, my instinct is also for the phono stage as they are generally poor in AVR's but have you tried a digital source like a CD player into it and if so is it as bad?

I also agree with looking at speaker placement as ajxd is correct those things need room but my instinct is to look at the front end first.

[circuit bored records]

I'm confused by the OP. Are you saying music in general doesn't have the capacity to sound better than streaming? Or just the vinyl portion of your set up? Are you happy with the way digital music (MP3 or FLAC) sounds but not vinyl?

 

Personally I would drive those ESLs with a lot more power than the 4100, in my listening experience with those ML electrostats really come to life when driving them with much more power, particularly when you have a strong 2-channel amp dedicated for the fronts or even monoblocks. Those things can handle up to 300w at 6 ohms and your amp is pushing 165... I had that exact set up in one of our demo rooms at one point and I hated brininging clients in there to listen, it was such a poor representation of the ESL speakers because (especially at louder volumes) it was obvious they weren't getting enough power.

 

However if it is just the vinyl you are disappointed with, change out the ortofon cartridge and be done with it

Edited September 28, 2016 by yanquiuxo

[allenh]

I've also found that in general all these types of AVR's lie like a Japanese cars speedometer when it comes to power output so if your speakers are difficult to drive then that could be a problem. It's not so much the quoted output, they can probably achieve it for at least 3 or even maybe 4 nano seconds with a run up but then they need a little rest to recover so they can't produce decent current levels for any meaningful length of time,

My AV system has a pair of very big and difficult to drive Mordaunt Shorts and with every Denon and Onkyo I tried even the very big ones they just didn't work, My original Rotel and my current Yamaha drive them perfectly well. Sadly the Yamaha's phono stage isn't great and the Rotel didn't have one so I've had to add a separate one.

[tokimedo]

WOW! lots of valuable information here and i really appreciate you guys taking the time to response.. lets run this one by one...

 

22 hours ago, Tardcore said:

Usually people will recommend to ditch the AVR, but that particular AVR is the Denon equivalent to the Marantz SR7009.  It should at least be competent.

I'd start with going through your Turntable setup to confirm everything is in order there.  

prob gonna stick with the receiver (it wasnt cheap by any means) and just get an external amp.

 

21 hours ago, ajxd said:

I could be wrong, but the MLs need a LOT of room. More space behind and to the sides.

Also the TT... what cart?

stock cartridge on that player. and yeah, i dont have anywhere else to move the speakers

 

20 hours ago, kannibal said:

Are you comparing record playback and Spotify playback through the same AVR, speaker wire, and speakers? 

 

If so, to improve source audio you need to look at what's in front of the shared components. So in this case, phono preamp, turntable, and cartridge. If you are using the built-in phono pre, I would suggest trying a stand alone. I would also suggest trying a new cartridge if you are using stock or 2M. Pick one or the other, but buy from somewhere with a good return or exchange policy, in case you aren't satisfied with the results. This doesn't necessarily mean that what you have is bad, it just might sound good to you. 

 

All that being said, I can't understate the importance of a great source. A lot of modern pressings just plain aren't that great, and may even be cut from the exact same file you're streaming on Spotify. I am currently taking a hard look at my record collection after mixed experiences with various vintage, reissued, and new pressings.

 

Hope me you can figure out improvements for yourself. 

this is all extremely helpful. and yes, playback thru spotify and record is through the same setup. stand alone amp seems to be the way to go. do you think the stock cartridge with that player isnt up to par?

 

i was aware how important sourcing is, but even the best sourced records just dont "pop" like they should. 

 

20 hours ago, bjorn said:

Not sure how good the phono pre in that receiver is; might be worth upgrading. Also, I agree with adjusting the placement of your speakers.

how would you suggest adjusting the speakers? My options are slim to none but would love to hear your opinion on how you would arrange them.

 

11 hours ago, allenh said:

Could be many things, my instinct is also for the phono stage as they are generally poor in AVR's but have you tried a digital source like a CD player into it and if so is it as bad?

I also agree with looking at speaker placement as ajxd is correct those things need room but my instinct is to look at the front end first.

more and more im thinking the receiver just cant keep up with the built in amp.

 

9 hours ago, yanquiuxo said:

I'm confused by the OP. Are you saying music in general doesn't have the capacity to sound better than streaming? Or just the vinyl portion of your set up? Are you happy with the way digital music (MP3 or FLAC) sounds but not vinyl?

 

Personally I would drive those ESLs with a lot more power than the 4100, in my listening experience with those ML electrostats really come to life when driving them with much more power, particularly when you have a strong 2-channel amp dedicated for the fronts or even monoblocks. Those things can handle up to 300w at 6 ohms and your amp is pushing 165... I had that exact set up in one of our demo rooms at one point and I hated brininging clients in there to listen, it was such a poor representation of the ESL speakers because (especially at louder volumes) it was obvious they weren't getting enough power.

 

However if it is just the vinyl you are disappointed with, change out the ortofon cartridge and be done with it

 

im happy with the digital music sound...no problems there..its just that there isnt much difference to me listening thru spotify than spinning a record and i know it shouldnt be that way (specially on ones that are properly sourced). im 100% gonna invest in a 2 channel amp.  

 

any suggestions you may have on an amp that can keep up and power the the speakers? also any suggestions on a cartridge? 

 

 

really appreciate everyones responses and input!! 

 

[circuit bored records]

If you are happy with the way other sources sound on your set up, I don't think adding a different power amp for your speakers makes much sense. It sounds like something strictly in your phono chain is leaving something to be desired for you. 

 

I would personally start with a different cartridge, it'll be the easiest, most cost effective upgrade without making a substantial change to your set up, however it will have a substantial impact on your sound quality. I wasn't a huge fan of my Pro-Ject carbon in general when I had one, but when I ditched the ortofon cart it was much more tolerable. 

[tokimedo]

9 minutes ago, yanquiuxo said:

If you are happy with the way other sources sound on your set up, I don't think adding a different power amp for your speakers makes much sense. It sounds like something strictly in your phono chain is leaving something to be desired for you. 

 

I would personally start with a different cartridge, it'll be the easiest, most cost effective upgrade without making a substantial change to your set up, however it will have a substantial impact on your sound quality. I wasn't a huge fan of my Pro-Ject carbon in general when I had one, but when I ditched the ortofon cart it was much more tolerable. 

 

thoughts on a decent cartridge to go up to? im pretty ignorant when it comes to solid cartridges. 

[slinch]

31 minutes ago, tokimedo said:

im happy with the digital music sound...no problems there..its just that there isnt much difference to me listening thru spotify than spinning a record and i know it shouldnt be that way (specially on ones that are properly sourced)

 

I might be a downer for saying this, but yeah, more often than not there really wouldn't be much of a difference. At least in terms of quality.

 

I've found that you have to spend exponentially more on analog equipment just to get it on par with the digital end. And even then, most records us VCers buy won't even have the potential to blow digital out of the water. Personally I've found that maybe 5% of the records I own sound better than their digital counterparts, regardless of how they were sourced. Most of them sound different, but very few sound better.

 

But adding a separate amplifier will definitely improve your experience on both sides of the spectrum, so it's never a bad idea. Though if you want more specifically out of vinyl, a better cart is probably your best bet.

[circuit bored records]

32 minutes ago, slinch said:

I might be a downer for saying this, but yeah, more often than not there really wouldn't be much of a difference. At least in terms of quality.

 

I've found that you have to spend exponentially more on analog equipment just to get it on par with the digital end. And even then, most records us VCers buy won't even have the potential to blow digital out of the water. Personally I've found that maybe 5% of the records I own sound better than their digital counterparts, regardless of how they were sourced. Most of them sound different, but very few sound better.

 

But adding a separate amplifier will definitely improve your experience on both sides of the spectrum, so it's never a bad idea. Though if you want more specifically out of vinyl, a better cart is probably your best bet.

I agree with all of this. 

 

As as far as carts go, the Shure m97xe or the AT-440mlb are always go to suggestions for me as they are easy to install and align and sounds great for the price... Whatever you buy just get it from somewhere with a good return policy as you can try to break it in and see how you like it and always send it back if you don't. 

[allenh]

What's specifically wrong with the sound?

 

Is it missing at one point in the spectrum i.e lacking bass, mid or treble?

Is it thin all over?

Is it lacking detail compared to the digital?

Does it sound muddy?

Does it sound distorted?

Is it not imaging i.e the sound stays in the speakers and doesn't project out of them?

Does it ever sound good?

Does it happen consistently with every record?

Does it happen only at the end or beginning of a side?

 

A lot of questions I know but it's much harder to diagnose an analogue problem without hearing it than it is with digital.

 

Technically any analogue source is inferior to a high bitrate digital source but the analogue source will sound different and can and should sound nicer to the digital, but that of course is a matter of opinion. And as Slinch implies it's a lot easier to get a digital source to a certain level but the difference with analogue is that whereas a good digital source doesn't sound a lot better than an average one and a high end one doesn't sound a lot better than a good one if you listen to them all through the same decent amplifier with a turntable a good one sounds a lot better than an average one and a high end one sounds a lot better then a good one and the higher up the food chain you go with an analogue source the more the quality of the media matters.

 

The two things it's easy and relatively easy for you to change are the cartridge/or stylus (that body can take the blue stylus) and the phono stage. Both the Project and the Ortofon red have fans and detractors so you need to work out if it is an actual problem or if you just don't like one or all the parts of your analogue chain.