neo_styles Posted March 10, 2017 Share Posted March 10, 2017 Your tube amp was, by design, quite midrange-heavy. Now that you're dealing with SS, you're fighting an uphill battle between A/D/A conversion and far less introduction of harmonic distortion than your ARC was putting in. Yes, tube is a livelier sound, but I have a really hard time considering it "natural" in a production sense...but that's just the producer in me. That's why the good companies spend far more on the right DACs and power/amp stage topologies on SS amps; it does make a world of difference. As for your choice between the Marantz and the Emotiva, I'm sorry to say, but that's kinda why I rarely recommend Marantz to anybody. It seems, over the past decade, D&M seems to have shifted a bit from focusing on the audiophile and, instead, put more resources into the consumer market. Even McIntosh has suffered sightly and I'm surprised to see new owners of their equipment end up similarly underwhelmed. Emotiva's really not a bad brand. They focus on only a few things and do it quite well. Between them and NAD, I'd rather send my money to Emotiva...if that carries any weight. At least this was a bit of a learning lesson for you, but I encourage you to not think of this in terms of better/worse, but simply different. They're two entirely different topologies and I think you're already on the right track to finding a happy medium between the Marantz and ARC based on EQ settings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allenh Posted March 10, 2017 Share Posted March 10, 2017 Sound is very much about personal preference and a valve amplifier by it's nature isn't natural so will always colour the sound and it's that colouration that some people prefer. Generally it's the harmonic distortion inherent because of the lack of fast switching that is the warmth that people talk about when dealing with valve amps. Some early transistor amps had it to a certain degree which is why a lot of those now are quite desirable where you get some of the valve liveliness but with less of the unreliability and fragility. Over here in the bad old days of magazine reviews being paid for by manufacturers there was a long period where anything other than Linn or Naim electronics was frowned upon where the quest was for a flat neutral sound and because of those reviews that legend still persists today but that doesn't mean it's right for everyone and my own feeling is it isn't right for that many but once you've shelled out a small fortune for your LP12 and Naim amps its a bit of an emperors new clothes situation. I know the first time I heard a valve amplifier I was hooked and knew it was what I wanted. I have had and still have plenty of high quality SS electronics, I have a compulsion to try as much hifi as I can in one lifetime, but I enjoy music the most when reproduced through valve amplification, like I say personal preference. Yes technically modern SS amplifiers are vastly superior to valve amplifiers in the same way that digital playback is technically vastly superior to analogue playback but if you don't like the sound of modern SS amplifiers then all that R&D is completely wasted on you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xxmartinxx Posted March 14, 2017 Author Share Posted March 14, 2017 I still haven't gotten a response about the Marantz, so I just bought a Rogue Cronus Magnum II. Don't tell my wife. ajxd and allenh 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xxmartinxx Posted March 14, 2017 Author Share Posted March 14, 2017 (edited) On 3/9/2017 at 11:12 PM, neo_styles said: Your tube amp was, by design, quite midrange-heavy. Now that you're dealing with SS, you're fighting an uphill battle between A/D/A conversion and far less introduction of harmonic distortion than your ARC was putting in. Yes, tube is a livelier sound, but I have a really hard time considering it "natural" in a production sense...but that's just the producer in me. That's why the good companies spend far more on the right DACs and power/amp stage topologies on SS amps; it does make a world of difference. As for your choice between the Marantz and the Emotiva, I'm sorry to say, but that's kinda why I rarely recommend Marantz to anybody. It seems, over the past decade, D&M seems to have shifted a bit from focusing on the audiophile and, instead, put more resources into the consumer market. Even McIntosh has suffered sightly and I'm surprised to see new owners of their equipment end up similarly underwhelmed. Emotiva's really not a bad brand. They focus on only a few things and do it quite well. Between them and NAD, I'd rather send my money to Emotiva...if that carries any weight. At least this was a bit of a learning lesson for you, but I encourage you to not think of this in terms of better/worse, but simply different. They're two entirely different topologies and I think you're already on the right track to finding a happy medium between the Marantz and ARC based on EQ settings. My tube amp wasn't very "midrange-heavy". Neither ARC nor KT88's are known for their midrange forward sound. EL34 based amps, sure, but just because it's a tube amp doesn't immediately mean lots of midrange. At this point, my problem with the Marantz is more about it's dependability rather than it's sonic characteristics. For an amp that cost nearly one tenth of the price of the ARC when new, it was fine. Regarding D&M, I'm not sure of the relationship they have/had with either Marantz and McIntosh, but McIntosh has been owned by Fine Sounds (or whatever it's called now) for like four years. Ironically, they also own ARC. Edited March 14, 2017 by xxmartinxx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCF Posted March 27, 2017 Share Posted March 27, 2017 On 14.3.2017 at 8:26 PM, xxmartinxx said: Regarding D&M, I'm not sure of the relationship they have/had with either Marantz and McIntosh, but McIntosh has been owned by Fine Sounds (or whatever it's called now) for like four years. Ironically, they also own ARC. D&M = Denon&Marantz Holding, the companies merged in 2000. Mcintosh used to be part of that group as well. And Mcintosh left Fine Sounds thru an MBO and the group (still including ARC) is now called Mcintosh group. And a bit more on topic: I bought a TT 15 S1 last week via ebay, equipped with a 103R. I haven't had the time to set it up yet, but I'm looking forward to find out how an MC pickup differs from the 2M Bropnze on my other turntable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xxmartinxx Posted March 27, 2017 Author Share Posted March 27, 2017 The biggest difference is going to be finding a phono preamp with the loading options and the gain to get you were you want to be with the 103R. It's lower output than the D103, which I've had, and I found it difficult. I ended up with the Rogue Triton. The Sutherland PH3D I had previously wasn't up to the task. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xxmartinxx Posted March 27, 2017 Author Share Posted March 27, 2017 To make life more interesting, I decided to order one of these: http://www.musicalparadise.ca/store/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=75 I used to have MP-301 MKII, which was cool, but my speakers weren't efficient enough to get any low end out of it. I've been curious about Class D amps lately and this thing is dirt cheap. Musical Paradise has really nicely built, well constructed products (especially if you believe that the parts list aren't Chinese knockoffs). I'll be shocked if it's not great. It only has one set of RCA inputs, but if I end up liking it, I could pull out the useless (to me) DAC and add another set. This could be a poor man's Rogue Sphinx. I'll let you know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCF Posted March 27, 2017 Share Posted March 27, 2017 2 hours ago, xxmartinxx said: The biggest difference is going to be finding a phono preamp with the loading options and the gain to get you were you want to be with the 103R. It's lower output than the D103, which I've had, and I found it difficult. I ended up with the Rogue Triton. The Sutherland PH3D I had previously wasn't up to the task. I didn't even realize the 103R's output is that low (0.25 mV). It is not specified n the manual, but I think my amp's phono stage has a gain of 60 dB which should be ok. it definitely has several loading options, so I will give be it a try and see if I like it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xxmartinxx Posted March 27, 2017 Author Share Posted March 27, 2017 My Sutherland had 60dB of gain and it always wanted more juice. Hopefully, you have at least a 100 ohm loading option. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCF Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 11 hours ago, xxmartinxx said: My Sutherland had 60dB of gain and it always wanted more juice. Hopefully, you have at least a 100 ohm loading option. Yeah, it has several options between 50 and 1000 Ohms, so that's fine. If the low output really proved to be a problem that would be a real bummer. On the other hand, I could use an excuse to buy an external phono stage Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jlegg Posted March 30, 2017 Share Posted March 30, 2017 On 3/27/2017 at 3:08 PM, xxmartinxx said: To make life more interesting, I decided to order one of these: http://www.musicalparadise.ca/store/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=75 I used to have MP-301 MKII, which was cool, but my speakers weren't efficient enough to get any low end out of it. I've been curious about Class D amps lately and this thing is dirt cheap. Musical Paradise has really nicely built, well constructed products (especially if you believe that the parts list aren't Chinese knockoffs). I'll be shocked if it's not great. It only has one set of RCA inputs, but if I end up liking it, I could pull out the useless (to me) DAC and add another set. This could be a poor man's Rogue Sphinx. I'll let you know. That chassis at least looks cool. So its a hybrid preamp (sand power supply, tube audio path) and solid state amp? Looks like it would be fun to mess with, especially if you're into modding, but I have to believe the sound cant be good. Or at least, wont have much of a tube sound to it at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jlegg Posted March 30, 2017 Share Posted March 30, 2017 17 minutes ago, Jlegg said: That chassis at least looks cool. So its a hybrid preamp (sand power supply, tube audio path) and solid state amp? Looks like it would be fun to mess with, especially if you're into modding, but I have to believe the sound cant be good. Or at least, wont have much of a tube sound to it at all. Also, I've not heard it, am not an expert, and that is just my opinion. It could very well sound awesome. I actually might pick one up just to check it out. Just didn't want anyone to think I was being a dick, or trying to shit on that amp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xxmartinxx Posted March 31, 2017 Author Share Posted March 31, 2017 If, when it arrives, it sucks, I'll shit on it enough for the both of us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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