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A Year worth of problems with the Pro-Ject Carbon Debut


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Hey guys,

Wanted to run a story by you guys and see if anybody had thoughts on what the problem might be and/or what my next step should be...

I bought my original Pro-Ject Debut Carbon during the Christmas of 14'. It proceeded to treat me well and play perfectly for the next year and a half. I could play a record dozens of times without any noticeable ware(pop, clicks, ext) and the vast majority of my vinyl was dead silent.

Last summer, I began to get a touch of sibilance during playback and so I replaced the stylus (which probably had 700-800 hours of wear on it). That's about the time that things went sour. Suddenly, records that I spun multiple times began to show signs of inner groove distortion and static/pops/ticks became frequent. Thinking that it must be a faulty stylus, I again swapped it out and then I stuck to playing the same 5 or so records so that I could monitor ware and tear.

When it became clear that there was still a problem, I sent the table off to Sumiko Audio (the US distributor for Pro-Ject). They spent about 2 weeks working on the table and then sent it back my way claiming no problems. When I got the table back, there was a noticable pull on the tonearm via the anti-skate weight when trying to line the needle up for a drop. For example, if I lined the needle up with a song in the center of the record, there was a good chance the needle would drift a touch towards the outside of the record. I reported the problem to Sumiko but they implied such things were normal and suggested dropping the tracking force. Since the records were playing quietly again (minus the few that had been previously damaged), I ignored my intuition and went about playing all but my most expensive records. A couple weeks later, the pops, clicks and occasional distortion returned.

I sent the turntable back a second time to Sumiko and they worked on it while I traveled abroad. When I received it back in February, Sumiko claimed that the cartridge had needed re-allignment (which they had done) and that my problems should be solved. However, sometime during their possession of the table (or during it's shipment to them), the table itself had gotten chipped up in several places (including the horn of the tonearm breaking off)-- something that they failed to tell me until the table was back in my possession. Furthermore, the noise returned to playback within a week or so of using the table... at which point, I demanded they give me a new turntable... because that's what they had promised to do if they couldn't solve the problem and because they had failed to properly report the damage to my table.

Near the end of March I finally received that new table-- one that was clearly refurbished based on the way it was packaged. Since then I have been slowly going through my collection and seeing which vinyl was permanently damaged during this whole ordeal. For example, those 5 or so records that were on repeat when the problem initially surfaced are choke full of surface noise (much of which couldn't be heard on the old table) and will need to be replaced. However, the tricky part is that I am not completely convinced that the "new" table is tracking properly and so I have some questions.

1) Certain records have been giving me distortion during highs and or lows. But that distortion is not consistent. For example, I was playing a QotSA album last night and one of the songs was distorting on the bass line. I played the song back 3-4 times and each time the distortion became less frequent. This morning it only happened twice over the course of the song (as opposed to the 10 or so times last night).

2) I'm getting pops, clicks, ext on records that I was pretty certain I had left alone during this whole ordeal. Granted, it's been a whole year now so who knows how many records I played once or twice during the periods where I thought the table was fixed. But what confuses me is that the amount of noise I'm getting on these records completely varies during playback. It's always worse on the outer portion of the record and seems to lessen each time I play the record back (so similar to the situation described above). For example, I was playing Outkast's Aquemini last night and was getting a shit ton of surface noise on the beginning of side A. I played the opening songs 3-4 times and each time the surface noise grew fainter (though it's still there and seemingly permanent).  These are records that used to be super quiet and, in many cases, have only been played a handful of times.

Could it be that these records were damaged via the old table and this is just the needle re-orienting itself inside of a damaged groove? And with each playback the needle is retracing the proper path and so the noise lessens? Could it be that the cartridge on this reurbished table is old and needs to be replaced? (At this point I don't trust Sumiko what-so-ever). 

I've also moved since the initial problems started. And my new place is noticable dustier than the old spot. I've always kept my records clean and wiped them down with some solution and an old school dishwasher brush before playback... but perhaps the new spot requires an adjustment to this process? Do you guys have an anti-static brush you recommend? Any thoughts as to whether the acyrilic platter is a worthy upgrade?

FYI I've used a scale to check the tracking force of the table and it's set at the proper 1.75g for the Red. I also have double checked that the platter is level.

Sorry that this post is so long winded and thanks in advance for any responses

Edited by downisthenewup87
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Geez, that's quite the post and the ordeal you seem to have been through.  My number one recommendation would be to find a local stereo shop to work on your turntable in the future.  Shipping it around almost invites a nightmare scenario like you've experienced.  

 

The fact the pops and noise change on each play seems to rule out physical damage to the record and more likely indicative of static buildup.  I guess it could be a tracking issue.  You can go up to 2 grams of tracking force with the Red.  They recommend 1.8, which is a hair higher than where you are.  That may help, it may not.  The 2M Red isn't known for its great tracking.  The Blue is supposed to track better.  Next time you replace the stylus, you can try buying the Blue stylus instead.

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Throughout reading your post I thought you were serious. Then I read this:

12 hours ago, downisthenewup87 said:

I've always kept my records clean and wiped them down with some solution and an old school dishwasher brush before playback... 

Well played, sir. I'd never have the motivation to type out this many sentences for one punchline.

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7 minutes ago, slinch said:

Throughout reading your post I thought you were serious. Then I read this:

Well played, sir. I'd never have the motivation to type out this many sentences for one punchline.

Way to be ass about it.  Not everyone has the finances to drop 600ish dollars on a wet vacuum.  I regularly batch clean via a spin doctor and then use the discwasher brush before each playback.  I had no problems for nearly 2 years with such a setup.

 

Do you have legimate concerns about the discwasher brush (such as static buildup) as opposed to simple snark and the predictable buy a wet vacuum retort?  I'll gladly tale suggestions on better brushes and the such.

5 hours ago, xxmartinxx said:

Geez, that's quite the post and the ordeal you seem to have been through.  My number one recommendation would be to find a local stereo shop to work on your turntable in the future.  Shipping it around almost invites a nightmare scenario like you've experienced.  

 

The fact the pops and noise change on each play seems to rule out physical damage to the record and more likely indicative of static buildup.  I guess it could be a tracking issue.  You can go up to 2 grams of tracking force with the Red.  They recommend 1.8, which is a hair higher than where you are.  That may help, it may not.  The 2M Red isn't known for its great tracking.  The Blue is supposed to track better.  Next time you replace the stylus, you can try buying the Blue stylus instead.

Thanksnfor the sincere response.  Gonna start saving for the blue it seems.  Thoughts on whether an acryillic platter will help?

 

I think there is actual damage to some of the records but that static (and excess dust) may actually be a problem in the new home.  Do you have suggestions on brushes?

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4 minutes ago, downisthenewup87 said:

Way to be ass about it.  Not everyone has the finances to drop 600ish dollars on a wet vacuum.  I regularly batch clean via a spin doctor and then use the discwasher brush before each playback.  I had no problems for nearly 2 years with such a setup.

 

Do you have legimate concerns about the discwasher brush (such as static buildup) as opposed to simple snark and the predictable buy a wet vacuum retort?  I'll gladly tale suggestions on better brushes and the such.

Well in your original post it says dishwasher brush. I googled it and got this:

Deluxe_Dishwasher_Brush.png

I'm sure you can understand why I thought it was just an elaborate joke :)

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To not be completely useless, my guess would be static as well. It doesn't explain all the problems you're having, but it does most of them.

 

1. Pops/clicks/surface noise are usually not a sign of wear or damage but improper cleaning. They can lead to permanent damage, but not because something would be wrong with your table/cart, but because records probably aren't properly cleaned. I don't own a record cleaning machine either, but I do believe it is absolutely essential and I understand that by not owning it I am exposing my records to marginal long term damage. Personally I don't really like wet cleaning with spin clean and similar budget products because they increase the chance  of long term damage/problems if not done 100% correctly. I only use a carbon brush (any $10 brush will do), though I'm not a fan of it either. It helps a tiny bit, but far from what I'd like.

 

2. Since you've mentioned the noise gets lesser the more you repeat a certain song, it seems to me your needle picks up whatever dirt there is and thus you get a "cleaner" play. So again, I'd guess dirty records, not damaged.

 

3. Acrylic platter will help in reducing static, but there are cheaper alternatives that are just as effective. The main culprit for static is the felt slipmat (I'm guessing you're using the one that came with your table?) You can replace that with a cork, leather, acrylic or a carbon slipmat. My choice would be acrylic, but any of them will do.

 

4. That inconsistent distortion is what I don't really have an answer to. It could be any of a number of things. Bad cart alignment (now that I mention it, anytime you exchange the needle it's essential to carefully check and adjust the alignment as well), faulty wiring, problems with the phono cables, phono pre inputs or outputs, or anywhere else down the line. You'll have to do a lot of testing by elimination to figure that one out.

 

5. Lastly, inner groove distortion is unfortunately just part of the game. It is technically impossible to get the needle to move at a correct angle throughout the entire record on a 8.6" (or whatever the length is, I don't remember really) tonearm. It's something you'll have to learn to live with until you're ready to throw a lot more money into this. Oh, and the problems you've mentioned with your retailer sound absolutely horrible, receiving a damaged table back and then a b-stock exchange is unacceptable if you ask me.

Edited by slinch
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From the first table if the record damage was permanent i.e. it's repeatable every play then it sounds like the arm bearings bound up or moved out of true which caused the IGD and subsequent damage, it will have worn one side of the groove wall on the inner grooves.

 

The rest just sounds like static, so an acrylic platter and a zero stat is the way I'd go and yes if you like the Ortofon sound then upgrading to the blue stylus would be worthwhile.

 

And moving forward to check for tracking issues however they appear it's worth getting a HiFi set up record, they usually cost next to nothing and can be pretty useful.

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1. Vinyl records are made of different quality off vinyl/plastic. 

1a. They all have more or less clicks and pops. Take two brand new records from different manufacturing plants. And listen. And you will hear more or less clicks and pops between those records. And one off them can bee dead silent but not the other one.. Why is that? Yes the plastic formula differs. Today even colored vinyl sounds ok because of advancement in material formula..

1b. The different plastic material formula give us different properties. Like that some records wear out and gives more clicks and pops quicker than others that withstand wear better.

 

This above gives you less hifi experience for each playback because it is a wear with each playback. That will be appearent sooner or later because of the wear.

And this is is separately from if you have the cleanest records in the whole world. The diamond tip will wear the groove regardless of your cleaning procedure...

 

One thing is certain that it is a little bit exiting to play back a record. Because it will every time be a little bit different (read worse).. (if you are a little bit mean)

___________

Then we come to things that has nothing to do with clicks and pops..

2. On top on this you have cartridge alignment:

2a. This is not trivial because there is more than a handful different curves to choose from with each one has different diameters that is slightly better than another curve. And of course you can with tools calculate your own curve for your turntable, axle to arm pivot distance.

But no one is perfect. They has only more or even little more angle error.

3. Hight of tonearm (SRA). So the tonearm are parallel to the record. 

Let say that this is the setting that has the best sound (probably not). And you have a 200g record and a standard let's say 100g. Then the 200g is twice as thick and rise the cartridge higher up. And your tonearm is sloping down. Just nearly not measurable but you can hear it (if you a and b and has a good system).

And another factor is also that different vinyl cutting machines has a slightly different angle..

3a. Higher in the back of the tonearm

3b. Lower in the back of the tonearm

4. A handful types of needle shapes. With shibata and types alike that has more contact with the groove. And of course gives you other disadvantages...

5. Needle pressure affect bass response and vocal definition, among others. Just the right amount to get find the sweet spot.

5a. Too much or..

5b. ..to little will make the one ore the other to almost disappear.

6. Antiscate.. .. follow the needle pressure.

7. Azimuth depending on the shape of the diamond tip it will be more or less sensitive to this adjustment. And more or less sensitive with different records! Some records is not affected but others will not give you the right center image.

8. The rotation speed is usually off with a couple of percent for beltdrive turn tables. And vary between new belts. My speed where of with 0.2 rpm to slow and I thought it would get better with a new belt. But got even worse.. ..quartz turn tables has a big advantage here..

 

This is only some things regarding adjustments, to get under control. To get some decent sound. And then we have not touched the RIAA and other things!

 

I know that this is a vinyl community. But with all of the above plus other things makes vinyl not for everyone.  If you are not willing to put in time to learn and try what the sound diffrens between for example the lowest recommended tracking force and highest for your cartridge. Then you can never adjust the tracking force so that it sounds good to YOU! If you let someone else makes the setting for you.. then it sounds good to them and it has nothing with your preference to do.

 

I envy the guys that plays CD/SACD. One hi end guy that only plays CD and SACD told that he will go back in time and start use vinyl the day when I start to drive an old comfortless car from the seventies!

He have a point in that when the optical media is contactless and his 20 years old CDs sounds the same as day 1 if not better because today he has 10 times better CD drive than he had for 20 years ago..

We both bought the same recording he on CD and I on vinyl. Today my record is full of cracks an pops when it turns out that the vinyl record on this release was bad in withstand wear..

I will go back to CD when I have room for it. 

Approximately more than 90% of each of our vinyl collections are 33 rpm 12 " records..

But if the manufacturer makes limited runs with only 1000 copies from each stampers to keep the sound quality up. Or make all albums instead in 45 rpm to give better sound quality. Or mastered in half speed to get better sound quality. And so on

But we still have >90% of our collection that are nothing of the above. In other words we are OK with lower fidelity!

That contradict the purpose of going back to vinyl from the superior CD media.. (of course with a good CD player)

 

And yes there are OTHER reasons to play vinyl than expecting hi fidelity.. :)

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