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PO - Brand New - Science Fiction

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1 hour ago, stl_ben said:

For those who are getting refunds / getting rid of all things Brand New; do you own any records by Michael Jackson, Jerry Lee Lewis, The Rolling Stones, Elvis Presley, Chuck Berry? 

Or own/watch movies by Woody Allen or Roman Polanski?

Voted for Clinton or Trump?

In no way saying everything that everyone has done is ok, but wondering where you guys draw the line?

 

I had started to type something like this out but didn't quite know how to put it. Basically, aside from what's been confirmed and is currently coming out - a lot of y'all need to just queue up the majority of your record collections. I've had friends that have toured with the majority of bands I enjoy and y'all enjoy and the stories I've heard are plentiful.

 

Also - I find it weird that very few people have mentioned rehabilitation for these individuals. It's just "THEY SHOULD BE IN JAIL" and other really nice wishes. You forget that these individuals are human beings, however reprehensible their actions may be, and I think it's important to remember mental health plays  A HUGE ISSUE in these kinds of attacks. But yea, let's go ahead and bring out the pitchforks and hang anyone and everyone that has ever committed a heinous crime. I'm sure the lot of you would all be safe, I imagine, since you're throwing those pebbles so goddamn hard in that glass house from which y'all are shouting.

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3 minutes ago, jonnywreck said:

I had started to type something like this out but didn't quite know how to put it. Basically, aside from what's been confirmed and is currently coming out - a lot of y'all need to just queue up the majority of your record collections. I've had friends that have toured with the majority of bands I enjoy and y'all enjoy and the stories I've heard are plentiful.

 

Also - I find it weird that very few people have mentioned rehabilitation for these individuals. It's just "THEY SHOULD BE IN JAIL" and other really nice wishes. You forget that these individuals are human beings, however reprehensible their actions may be, and I think it's important to remember mental health plays  A HUGE ISSUE in these kinds of attacks. But yea, let's go ahead and bring out the pitchforks and hang anyone and everyone that has ever committed a heinous crime. I'm sure the lot of you would all be safe, I imagine, since you're throwing those pebbles so goddamn hard in that glass house from which y'all are shouting.

Something to consider is that victims live for a long time being doubted, called liars, having their flaws magnified, and being dehumanized, all because someone else victimized them. Meanwhile, almost instantly and sometimes prior to being outed, perpetrators often experience the opposite. They are more likely to be humanized, have their actions minimized, have their feelings prioritized and protected, and have friends/fans advocate for them to be rushed past the consequences phase and into the forgiveness phase.

Jesse Lacey didn't wake up one morning inserted into another person's mess. He did what he did to those women and he was able to continue being a rock star with a cult-following with little public fall out and start a family and lead his life. If you really feel for him and wish him relief and comfort and an escape from these consequences, consider the last 15 years an advance payment of that empathy and comfort. Now, the grace period has ended and he's reaping what he's sown.

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1 minute ago, swb said:

Something to consider is that victims live for a long time being doubted, called liars, having their flaws magnified, and being dehumanized, all because someone else victimized them. Meanwhile, almost instantly and sometimes prior to being outed, perpetrators often experience the opposite. They are more likely to be humanized, have their actions minimized, have their feelings prioritized and protected, and have friends/fans advocate for them to be rushed past the consequences phase and into the forgiveness phase.

Jesse Lacey didn't wake up one morning inserted into another person's mess. He did what he did to those women and he was able to continue being a rock star with a cult-following with little public fall out and start a family and lead his life. If you really feel for him and wish him relief and comfort and an escape from these consequences, consider the last 15 years an advance payment of that empathy and comfort. Now, the grace period has ended and he's reaping what he's sown.

I think your view of "rehabilitation" is... dead wrong. Rehabilitation is not relieving, comforting, AND IT'S DEFINITELY NOT an escape from consequences.

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42 minutes ago, jonnywreck said:

Also - I find it weird that very few people have mentioned rehabilitation for these individuals. It's just "THEY SHOULD BE IN JAIL" and other really nice wishes. You forget that these individuals are human beings, however reprehensible their actions may be, and I think it's important to remember mental health plays  A HUGE ISSUE in these kinds of attacks. But yea, let's go ahead and bring out the pitchforks and hang anyone and everyone that has ever committed a heinous crime. I'm sure the lot of you would all be safe, I imagine, since you're throwing those pebbles so goddamn hard in that glass house from which y'all are shouting.

oh good, so the victims should suffer the agony and lose their chance at a normal life for 15 years, but god forbid Jesse Lacey faces intense scrutiny and loses FANS for a few days.

pedophiles should face criminal prosecution, and when they don't, or when we suspect they won't, we are under no obligation to let them crawl around "rehabilitating" their image. pedophiliac behavior is insidious and destructive, and those who partake in it ABSOLUTELY deserve severe repercussions. they do not deserve a pat on the back and a second chance. i absolutely love how you suggest those who, and i quote, commit a "heinous crime" should not face the harshest punishment of all. 

and finally, i keep seeing this asinine idea thrown around, that people criticizing Lacey are either puritanical or hypocritical. "glass house," my ass. only way this take works is if you're minimizing the horror of pedophiliac behavior by comparing it with everyday shortcomings or are insinuating this board and other spaces expressing outrage are infiltrated by pedophiles – both of which are laughable and indefensible.

Edited by copelandkid

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13 minutes ago, jonnywreck said:

I think your view of "rehabilitation" is... dead wrong. Rehabilitation is not relieving, comforting, AND IT'S DEFINITELY NOT an escape from consequences.

My post wasn't fully specific to yours, more of a general comment toward the idea that we are "missing" something when we condemn Lacey and the actions without a "but..." or any caveats. But, for the sake of clarity, I do think you can just say what you meant (that rehabilitation is important and "rehabilitation isn't an escape from consequences") and leave out the part about people being in glass houses and public hangings.

I agree with you that rehabilitation is important but, IMO, the other comments are kind of a muddy cloud of ideas that feel like a plea to leave him alone, divert his culpability toward mental health (which is its own huge debate), and deflect the attention put toward his actions toward the public reaction. It sounds like you didn't mean to convey those latter ideas, so you probably don't need to mix a good point about rehabilitation with an angsty middle finger toward people who want legal accountability.

If I am really far off from your intent and meaning, I apologize. I'm OK spending words trying to clarify and reach agreement but I don't want to start side arguments that take us away from the needed attention toward Lacey and how his actions deserve consequence (and rehabilitation!), especially if its due to a mistake in my reading comprehension.

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1 hour ago, stl_ben said:

In no way saying everything that everyone has done is ok, but wondering where you guys draw the line?

People usually draw those sorts of lines when & where something hits home. The more you care about and have invested in an artist, the more you'll feel personally betrayed when they do something awful. So it makes sense that those who really cared about Brand New are among the most troubled by the revelations about Jesse. There's no reason to think people have to apply a uniform principle to all similar cases.

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1 hour ago, jonnywreck said:

Also - I find it weird that very few people have mentioned rehabilitation for these individuals.

Lol, this is a brand new wound (soda speak). It'll be time to talk about the rehabilitation and forgiveness of the child molester in a decade or two. For the moment, ALL of our sympathy and attention should be focused on his victims.

 

Edited by conedust
slow reaction time

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8 minutes ago, thievedrelic said:

Honestly, at this point I'm just waiting to hear how special the Special Edition is in order to find out how hard I am going to cancel it.  Will it be a pensive mouse click?  Or a violent ENTER key?  Only time will tell.

I already canceled mine. it was a pretty soft mouse click, tbh.

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First and foremost I don't want this to seem like I'm downplaying the victims and what they endured. That's not the point. I'm not asking that anyone "like" Jesse Lacey or write off what he's done. I didn't mention the victims because I've sent them my sorrow and good vibes and I don't think ANYONE thinks these victims are to blame or should have had to suffer.

 

I'm more so a humanist. I believe that humans can become better with the proper treatment. There are so many factors to consider, many of which we'll never even know. My first thought when I heard this - "Was Jesse himself abused?" A lot of EDIT: sexual offenders suffer at the hands of others before they turn into one themselves. This is just one of the many thoughts I have whenever I read about these kinds of things. Same thing goes for most people that I see commit any crime. I'm just not one for blood and justice. I believe in humanity and society, and I don't believe that we even have the right to judge others. Therefore, I have these views.

 

Is his behavior reprehensible? Absolutely. Are all the girls involved victims? 100%. Should there be more attention focused on this? Yes.

 

But until we start treating criminals like humans... how can we expect them to act like them?

 

I probably shouldn't have said anything, but I'm honestly disgusted at how most of you have replied to not just me but to other posters stating their opinions. If you disagree, find a kinder way to say things rather than telling people they're "pedophile/rape apologists." It's just hateful and deters the idea of the "community" we're supposed to be building. I appreciate @swb responding with an open mind and seeing the potential for an open discussion.

Edited by jonnywreck

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3 minutes ago, deafening said:

As far as any of us are aware, Jesse is not sexually attracted to prepubescent children. This is disturbing enough without being hyperbolic by throwing the term "pedophile" around. 

 

Carry on.

Did not know there was an actual cut-off for pedophilia-related activities. Thanks for learning us.

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2 hours ago, stl_ben said:

For those who are getting refunds / getting rid of all things Brand New; do you own any records by Michael Jackson, Jerry Lee Lewis, The Rolling Stones, Elvis Presley, Chuck Berry? 

Or own/watch movies by Woody Allen or Roman Polanski?

Voted for Clinton or Trump?

In no way saying everything that everyone has done is ok, but wondering where you guys draw the line?

 

Everyone has their own line based on the things they like/have held dear to them.  IDGAF about Presley, Lewis, Berry or the Stones because I'm pretty neutral on all of them overall. Michael Jackson had some jams, and he was a megaperv for sure but I've always been able to separate art and artist in that particular case for whatever reason.

 

You couldn't pay me to watch a Woody Allen movie. His movies are basically metaphors for his own creepiness; you literally can't separate the art from the artist. As for Polanski, I don't think I've watched any of his movies, though that's mostly coincidence. I'm also not a big movie buff or anything.

 

Point is, everyone comes at art from a different perspective. I have no problem with people who can accept or not accept a given person's transgressions in relation to their art because that's up to them. For me, right now, with Brand New, I absolutely have to take a break from listening to them for a while because this bothers me. Will I feel the same way in a month? A year? 5 years? 10 years? Who knows?

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2 minutes ago, tape said:

I almost don't want to contribute to this insane line of discussion, but in psychiatric terms "pedophilia" refers to sexual attraction specifically to prepubescent children. It's in the DSM and everything.

I hadn't gotten around to reading that yet? I'm sorry? I was unaware until she had mentioned it, and then I thanked her for her contribution.

 

Your response, by the way, while not as bad as some I've seen just serves to prove my point. Don't call people or their conversations insane - it's not very productive, and if you're asking us to respect your approach to art, maybe you should follow that advice yourself.

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8 minutes ago, jonnywreck said:

I'm more so a humanist. I believe that humans can become better with the proper treatment. There are so many factors to consider, many of which we'll never even know. My first thought when I heard this - "Was Jesse himself abused?" A lot of pedophiles suffer at the hands of others before they turn into one themselves.

That's all well and good. Most decent people are gonna be with you on all that. It's just a question of timing. Now is not the best moment to make a big public show of sympathy for and goodwill toward the abuser. You may think it's morally important to do so, but lots of people are going to find that kind of white-knighting a little tone deaf. In the present moment, again, I think it's probably best to concentrate our sympathy on the victims.

 

That said, I don't see all that many people in this thread outright attacking Jesse, at least not to a troublesome degree. No one's calling for his balls to be nailed to a mint, colored-vinyl copy. And if you can be "honestly disgusted" by people who post in a less than civil manner, then I can be disgusted by rape apologists.

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6 minutes ago, tape said:

I almost don't want to contribute to this insane line of discussion, but in psychiatric terms "pedophilia" refers to sexual attraction specifically to prepubescent children. It's in the DSM and everything.

Yes, that's technically correct. But outside medical diagnosis, here in the everyday real world, pedophiles are people who fuck kids. Technical distinctions about the exact age of pubescence aren't germane.

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11 minutes ago, jonnywreck said:

Did not know there was an actual cut-off for pedophilia-related activities. Thanks for learning us.

It's a different connotation. You're an absolute piece of shit regardless of who you are preying on, but saying pedophile automatically (at least in my head) means like... really young kids. Technically it means prepubescent children, which these people theoretically weren't. In no way defending Jesse or anything he did, but trying to phrase things more provocatively (not picking on you specifically here, just saying in general) for the sake of getting that reaction isn't helping anything. 

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8 minutes ago, conedust said:

Yes, that's technically correct. But outside medical diagnosis, here in the everyday real world, pedophiles are people who fuck kids. Technical distinctions about the exact age of pubescence aren't germane.

Here, in the everyday real world, when most people hear pedophile, they think something akin to mustachio creep-show sitting outside of an elementary school playground, not a guy in his twenties sexting with a girl in her mid-late teens. We also do not know that Jesse actually had sex with a minor. So. It still means sexual attraction to prepubescent children.

 

Anyone is free to use whatever term they chose, but "pedophile" still, literally, does not fit the bill here.

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