Beginner’s Guide to Turntables & Hi–Fi *READ 1st PAGE BEFORE POSTING NEW THREADS / BASIC QUESTIONS*

[raye]

I've just got back from Richer Sounds in Edinburgh. I tried a lot of stuff. This is what I liked:

 

Project Debut Carbon Esprit

Cambridge AZUR 651A

Project Phono Box

Wharfedale Diamond 220 Speakers

 

The stuff I didn't like:

 

The Teac - don't bother. Sounds dreadful.

The Audio Technica ATLP120 - flat and uninspiring.

The Stanton T92 - dull and lifeless.

Q Acoustics 2020i Speakers - small and contained-sounding.

Thoughts?

[YouTwo]

If you like it buy it.

[jdtg]

I got a Debut Carbon DC about a week ago and I'm in need of some help/advice. It seems like the bass is cutting in a out whenever I'm playing a record. I never noticed this with my old table (Gemini XL500-II w/ AT95E) but I can tell it didn't have anywhere near the depth the Orto Red does. Everything is set up properly and I've tried 2 sets of RCA's both with the same result. When I play my phone/iPad through the AUX I'm not having the same problem. Volume is great through the phono so I'm wonder if an internal connection could be the problem? I don't have a pre-amp but I'm thinking about picking one up to see if this fixes things, is that a good idea or what else should I test before making a purchase? The receiver is a Marantz 2250

[allenh]

I've just got back from Richer Sounds in Edinburgh. I tried a lot of stuff. This is what I liked:

 

Project Debut Carbon Esprit

Cambridge AZUR 651A

Project Phono Box

Wharfedale Diamond 220 Speakers

 

The stuff I didn't like:

 

The Teac - don't bother. Sounds dreadful.

The Audio Technica ATLP120 - flat and uninspiring.

The Stanton T92 - dull and lifeless.

Q Acoustics 2020i Speakers - small and contained-sounding.

Thoughts?

 

Pretty much exactly what I thought you'd say and I rest my case, you can't beat actually listening to this stuff and buying it blind based on internet reviews is never a good thing.

 

I hate to say I told you so but one trip to Richer sounds and everything I wrote was vindicated but also rendered pointless just like listening to audio clips of turntables on youtube but I'm really glad it is because it does prove my point about going and listening to this stuff

 

Useful info on the Teac though but basically the stuff in the like list is proper hifi and the stuff in the don't like is not.

 

The only caveat I would give is don't discount Q acoustics as a brand as the larger speakers in the range are pretty good for the money and those very small ones are really intended as AV surround speakers not main stereo speakers.

[allenh]

I got a Debut Carbon DC about a week ago and I'm in need of some help/advice. It seems like the bass is cutting in a out whenever I'm playing a record. I never noticed this with my old table (Gemini XL500-II w/ AT95E) but I can tell it didn't have anywhere near the depth the Orto Red does. Everything is set up properly and I've tried 2 sets of RCA's both with the same result. When I play my phone/iPad through the AUX I'm not having the same problem. Volume is great through the phono so I'm wonder if an internal connection could be the problem? I don't have a pre-amp but I'm thinking about picking one up to see if this fixes things, is that a good idea or what else should I test before making a purchase? The receiver is a Marantz 2250

 

Always difficult to diagnose without hearing it but it sounds like it could be a problem in the phonostage of your Marantz which is quite possible as it's getting on a bit, the output from the cart in the Project could be different enough that it is causing problems the previous one didn't, the only way to prove that is with another phono stage plugged into a normal line input that you know works ok.

 

The only other things that spring to mind are how is the turntable mounted? does it sit on top of your amplifier or on the same shelf or on the same shelf as your speakers?  And is it when the bass gets particularly pronounced or just at random?

It could be an isolation problem or a possibly a problem with the cart to loose bass, with a bad connection everything would cut out so I would go with a problem in the phonostage first.

[raye]

Well, this is where I'm going to have to come clean and admit to playing a fair amount of devil's advocate. I wanted to see what advice I'd get, and I got exactly what I expected. But it's a positive outcome and I'm extremely grateful for the help.

 

Allenh - happy to prove your point. What did you think of the amp? It's the only thing I'm not 100% on. And also, what could you put together given the above as a baseline in quality? Also, how would you say the cart in the Esprit compares - subjectively, as always - to the Shure M97xe?

[dethrock]

I've just got back from Richer Sounds in Edinburgh. I tried a lot of stuff. This is what I liked:

 

Project Debut Carbon Esprit

Cambridge AZUR 651A

 

 

I've got a Pro-Ject (Xpression III) and just picked up the 651A. Pretty great combo in my opinion.

[raye]

I've got a Pro-Ject (Xpression III) and just picked up the 651A. Pretty great combo in my opinion.

 

Thanks for that - I've read some incredibly mixed reviews about that amp, but to these ears it sounded pretty damn good, so I'm glad someone else out there thinks so too.

[jdtg]

Always difficult to diagnose without hearing it but it sounds like it could be a problem in the phonostage of your Marantz which is quite possible as it's getting on a bit, the output from the cart in the Project could be different enough that it is causing problems the previous one didn't, the only way to prove that is with another phono stage plugged into a normal line input that you know works ok.

 

The only other things that spring to mind are how is the turntable mounted? does it sit on top of your amplifier or on the same shelf or on the same shelf as your speakers?  And is it when the bass gets particularly pronounced or just at random?

It could be an isolation problem or a possibly a problem with the cart to loose bass, with a bad connection everything would cut out so I would go with a problem in the phonostage first.

 

RIght now the table and receiver are on an Expedit 4x2 so about a foot between them, the speakers are on the sides of the unit on stands. It seems like it's cutting out more often than not and it doesn't seem to be albums w/ "pronounced" bass (It's terrible on Thrice "Artist..." and EITS "The earth..."). I'm thinking I'll try a phono pre and see what effect that has, I've been looking at the Emotiva XPS-1 and Schiit Mani. Any input on either or something else I should check out?

[allenh]

Well, this is where I'm going to have to come clean and admit to playing a fair amount of devil's advocate. I wanted to see what advice I'd get, and I got exactly what I expected. But it's a positive outcome and I'm extremely grateful for the help.

 

Allenh - happy to prove your point. What did you think of the amp? It's the only thing I'm not 100% on. And also, what could you put together given the above as a baseline in quality? Also, how would you say the cart in the Esprit compares - subjectively, as always - to the Shure M97xe?

 

To be honest you've answered your own questions on the 651, you liked what you heard which again makes internet reviews and other peoples opinions pretty pointless.

 

I've owned a 651 and thought it very competent and good value for the money but then Cambridge kit pretty much always is. Which Project phono stage did you try as there are a few Richers offer? And why didn't you try the Cambridge phono stage?

 

As to what I could put together well you have a budget of around £1050 on the kit in your like list at richers prices and I'm pretty certain 2nd hand I could put something together from the list of kit I laid out for anywhere between £500 and £800 that would sound better.

 

That Project table uses an Ortofon red I believe and I'm not a great fan of the Ortofon sound, it always sounds a little on the bright side to me so I would probably go with your Shure, what it lacks in detail it makes up for in musicality.

 

And I'm glad I’ve cured you of this strange DJ deck fetish

[allenh]

RIght now the table and receiver are on an Expedit 4x2 so about a foot between them, the speakers are on the sides of the unit on stands. It seems like it's cutting out more often than not and it doesn't seem to be albums w/ "pronounced" bass (It's terrible on Thrice "Artist..." and EITS "The earth..."). I'm thinking I'll try a phono pre and see what effect that has, I've been looking at the Emotiva XPS-1 and Schiit Mani. Any input on either or something else I should check out?

 

You're doing nothing different to many others with putting their kit on an Expedit and while it could be an isolation issue my money is still on the phono stage inside the Marantz.

 

I've got an Emotiva, ok but a bit flat sounding, the Schiit I haven't heard so can't comment but another thought is the Cambridge Azur 551 or 651, I'd try and borrow a cheap one from someone just as a test first though to make sure that is where your problem is.

[biodigitaljazz]

I've got an Emotiva, ok but a bit flat sounding

 

The one I sold you last year?

[raye]

To be honest you've answered your own questions on the 651, you liked what you heard which again makes internet reviews and other peoples opinions pretty pointless.

 

I've owned a 651 and thought it very competent and good value for the money but then Cambridge kit pretty much always is. Which Project phono stage did you try as there are a few Richers offer? And why didn't you try the Cambridge phono stage?

 

As to what I could put together well you have a budget of around £1050 on the kit in your like list at richers prices and I'm pretty certain 2nd hand I could put something together from the list of kit I laid out for anywhere between £500 and £800 that would sound better.

 

That Project table uses an Ortofon red I believe and I'm not a great fan of the Ortofon sound, it always sounds a little on the bright side to me so I would probably go with your Shure, what it lacks in detail it makes up for in musicality.

 

And I'm glad I’ve cured you of this strange DJ deck fetish

Thanks Allenh. It was the Project Phono Box MM - I didn't try the Cambridge because I ran out of time in the end. Do you think there's a significant difference?

 

I actually got a really good deal on all of the above, plus all phono leads, etc. and six years cover on the table and the amp. It came to just under £950, which beats the list price by a mile. Got to admit, I'm severely tempted.

 

The thing with the DJ deck. I just couldn't quite believe that the uploader could capture that quality of sound, even given the medium, on that equipment, which is why I pushed it here (that backfired because no one watched the video). He swears it's completely unedited, but there's a very wide sound there with a big and snappy bass response and vocals that pop. There's way too much separation for the price range of the table - but I'm no expert. I was hoping someone here could tell me exactly how he got that sound. Sure, it's a youtube vid from a soundcard and no kind of realistic comparison at all, but all the same I'm interested in knowing why and how it sounds like it does.

If you're around, PM me with a set-up and rough price. I'm planning on getting back to Richer tomorrow with a yes/no, so apologies for it being a little late in the day.

[Guest]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/381321889217?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT#shpCntId

 

This is a pretty interesting looking table. Whats the difference between this type of tracking and linear tracking? The fact it uses 1/2" mounts instead of p-mounts?

[allenh]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/381321889217?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT#shpCntId

 

This is a pretty interesting looking table. Whats the difference between this type of tracking and linear tracking? The fact it uses 1/2" mounts instead of p-mounts?

 

Nothing, it's still a linear tracking arm just it's a very good one rather than the usual cheap stuff that uses P mounts.

[allenh]

Thanks Allenh. It was the Project Phono Box MM - I didn't try the Cambridge because I ran out of time in the end. Do you think there's a significant difference?

 

I actually got a really good deal on all of the above, plus all phono leads, etc. and six years cover on the table and the amp. It came to just under £950, which beats the list price by a mile. Got to admit, I'm severely tempted.

 

The thing with the DJ deck. I just couldn't quite believe that the uploader could capture that quality of sound, even given the medium, on that equipment, which is why I pushed it here (that backfired because no one watched the video). He swears it's completely unedited, but there's a very wide sound there with a big and snappy bass response and vocals that pop. There's way too much separation for the price range of the table - but I'm no expert. I was hoping someone here could tell me exactly how he got that sound. Sure, it's a youtube vid from a soundcard and no kind of realistic comparison at all, but all the same I'm interested in knowing why and how it sounds like it does.

If you're around, PM me with a set-up and rough price. I'm planning on getting back to Richer tomorrow with a yes/no, so apologies for it being a little late in the day.

 

To my ears the Cambridge is a the better phono stage, the Project is a bit flat in comparison.

 

I did listen to the video and just thought fake and or a lot of processing going on in the recording.

 

As to equipment I have I would rather you listen to it or at least find someone to allow you yo listen to the same kit but I'll PM you a list of what I have anyway.

[Guest]

Nothing, it's still a linear tracking arm just it's a very good one rather than the usual cheap stuff that uses P mounts.

 

Makes sense. Thanks. Not going to buy it, just thought it was an interesting looking table.

[raye]

To my ears the Cambridge is a the better phono stage, the Project is a bit flat in comparison.

 

I did listen to the video and just thought fake and or a lot of processing going on in the recording.

 

As to equipment I have I would rather you listen to it or at least find someone to allow you yo listen to the same kit but I'll PM you a list of what I have anyway.

 

Thanks allenh, unfortunately I discovered your message thirty minutes after I'd said 'yes' to Richer, but I'm pretty happy I made the right choice. I'd definitely be interested in taking a look at whatever you might still have a little further down the line, though.

 

RE the video: there are several accounts with the same set up and sound playing pretty different genres. I'm starting to suspect there's an agenda.

 

Anyway, I guess I'm the proud owner of a Pro-ject Esprit SB, a Cambridge 651A, and a pair of Wharfedale Diamond 220 speakers. They arrive Monday.

 

Thanks for all the help; it's been ... educational.

[jdtg]

You're doing nothing different to many others with putting their kit on an Expedit and while it could be an isolation issue my money is still on the phono stage inside the Marantz.

 

I've got an Emotiva, ok but a bit flat sounding, the Schiit I haven't heard so can't comment but another thought is the Cambridge Azur 551 or 651, I'd try and borrow a cheap one from someone just as a test first though to make sure that is where your problem is.

I got a Phono Box S today, set the correct gain/imp for the Orto red and I'm getting the same thing. I went ahead and connected my old table to confirm and that one sounds fine. I'm concerned it's the new table or cart but I don't know if it's something I can fix or if I should return it? The cart was factory installed and aligned and I just set proper tracking weight and anti-skate.

[aju2streets]

Regarding speaker wire, does the copper and silver colored wire have a specific positive/negative charge plug they go with .I've read both ways, copper going with positive and the opposite, but more often I read copper as being positive. I rearranged my setup recently and noticed that the higher end sounded more distorted. I had the speaker wire as copper being positive so I switched it thinking I just did that wrong and it sounds a lot better now. But from what I've read I had it right the first time.

[Dominic_]

Regarding speaker wire, does the copper and silver colored wire have a specific positive/negative charge plug they go with .I've read both ways, copper going with positive and the opposite, but more often I read copper as being positive. I rearranged my setup recently and noticed that the higher end sounded more distorted. I had the speaker wire as copper being positive so I switched it thinking I just did that wrong and it sounds a lot better now. But from what I've read I had it right the first time.

I don't think it matters as long as you take positive on speaker to positive on receiver and same for negative

[allenh]

The one I sold you last year?

Probably, I wanted to try it because I'd never tried any Emotiva product and its not a brand that gets much coverage in the UK but on balance I much prefer the Cambridge 651, the Emotiva is a bit flat in comparison. I'm glad I tried it though otherwise it would have been a question I'd have never been able to answer.

[allenh]

Thanks allenh, unfortunately I discovered your message thirty minutes after I'd said 'yes' to Richer, but I'm pretty happy I made the right choice. I'd definitely be interested in taking a look at whatever you might still have a little further down the line, though.

 

RE the video: there are several accounts with the same set up and sound playing pretty different genres. I'm starting to suspect there's an agenda.

 

Anyway, I guess I'm the proud owner of a Pro-ject Esprit SB, a Cambridge 651A, and a pair of Wharfedale Diamond 220 speakers. They arrive Monday.

 

Thanks for all the help; it's been ... educational.

glad to have been an education. yes keep in touch I can't stop buying hifi so I've always got something spare.

You're probably right about those youtube video's but if they are a marketing ploy it will probably backfire on them, the internet makes very big highs and very big lows of things very quickly

What you've bought is a pretty good benchmark to compare other things to so it should serve you well.

[allenh]

I don't think it matters as long as you take positive on speaker to positive on receiver and same for negative

exactly right, as long as its the same both sides (left and right) and follows + to + and - to - you're fine, if you get it wrong it goes out of phase so one speaker cone on one side will be going in as the one the other side goes out

[BenderOfStrings]

Has anyone here had any experience with the Vincent Pho-8 pre amp?  Online feedback seems to be VERY positive but I was wondering if anyone here has used it and what you thought about it.  How does it compare to the Cambridge 651p?  Based on all my research, I have narrowed my pre amp choices down to these two to go with my Debut Carbon DC.