Installing an Ortofon 2M Red on my Pro-Ject Debut III

[Daniel Dopp]

Hey guys, I've taken my receiver into the shop because it's been acting up, and while I was there I decided to pick up a new cartridge to replace the OM-5E that came with my TT. I've never changed a cartridge before and I was curious if anyone had a "guide" for something like this. I've tried searching google and youtube, but I haven't found a decent instruction guide to make sure I'm not installing this incorrectly. 

 

Like I stated in the title, I've got a Debut III and the Ortofon 2M Red. Thanks in advance for any help you guys can give me!

[piky0032]

This would be handy to know......thinking of upgrading to the 2M red also

[Aaaaarrgh]

You need some installation gauge like MFSL Geo-Disc or Schoen-Schablone. I recommend the latter one but i don't know

if it's available in english.

[Daniel Dopp]

I think we're gonna have to wait until the week starts, the forum is pretty empty right now. 

 

For the record, if one of you hi-fi guys wanted to make a video of installation, I'd gladly paypal someone $5 or $10 for it as long as they post it on here for everyone to see. I think it'd be great for the forum (for those of us that have never swapped out a cartridge), and it could possibly go under the intro to hi-fi sticky that gets quite a bit of traffic. Just a thought.

[troymess]

Good idea...

[jase]

I think we're gonna have to wait until the week starts, the forum is pretty empty right now.

For the record, if one of you hi-fi guys wanted to make a video of installation, I'd gladly paypal someone $5 or $10 for it as long as they post it on here for everyone to see. I think it'd be great for the forum (for those of us that have never swapped out a cartridge), and it could possibly go under the intro to hi-fi sticky that gets quite a bit of traffic. Just a thought.

YouTube already has a few videos up on how to change a cartridge. And also quite a few on alignment, once installed

[dethrock]

Would the shop you bought it from not be willing to install it? Or do you want to do it yourself?

[Daniel Dopp]

YouTube already has a few videos up on how to change a cartridge. And also quite a few on alignment, once installed

 

There are, that is true. Not every cartridge is the same when it comes to installment and alignment which is why I was looking for someone to do a "how-to" with the 2M Red. 

 

 

Would the shop you bought it from not be willing to install it? Or do you want to do it yourself?

 

The shop may do it, but it's 45 minutes away and I don't want to drive an hour and a half away just for them to do it. It's something I'd like to know for my own personal knowledge. 

[bossdj26]

Installing is the easy part...alignment is a pain in the buns...still not sure if i ever got mine 100% where it should be but i'm impressed with the sound

 

fyi, you will need a heavier counterweight with the 2M Red on a stock debut iii

 

i believe this is the weight you need....i would double check the 2M's weight again

 

http://www.needledoctor.com/Pro-Ject-75g-Counterweight-for-Debut-Xpression

 

• Pro-Ject Debut: 55g counterweight, cartridges 1.5-3g
• Pro-Ject Debut: 65g counterweight, cartridges 3.5-5.5g
• Pro-Ject Debut: 75g counterweight, cartridges 6-9g

[3arl]

You don't need to buy a heavier weight.  That's why the counterwieght is adjustable.  Just adjust it to the recommended setting for the cartridge.

[bossdj26]

You don't need to buy a heavier weight.  That's why the counterwieght is adjustable.  Just adjust it to the recommended setting for the cartridge.

 

 

nope, the 2M Red is a pretty heavy cartridge...stock counterweight isn't heavy enough

[dethrock]

nope, the 2M Red is a pretty heavy cartridge...stock counterweight isn't heavy enough

 

Not claiming to be an expert here but I'm pretty sure you don't need a heavier counterweight. I have a 2M red on my Project Essential (which would have the same or worse tonearm as a Debut) and I didn't need a heavier counterweight, it just needed to be adjusted from where it was for the stock cart.

[ajxd]

You're wrong. You don't need to swap counterweights.

[Daniel Dopp]

The OM5E is 5gm. The 2M is 7.2 gm. Because of this, they're telling me I should technically get a heavier counterweight based on what comes with the Debut III: 

 

Supplied counterweight cartridge weight 3,5 - 5,5g

 

• Pro-Ject Debut: 65g counterweight, cartridges 3.5-5.5g
• Pro-Ject Debut: 75g counterweight, cartridges 6-9g

 

That's just based on what Pro-Ject says, but if multiple people on here say I don't need one, than I'll hold off until I can hear it with the stock counterweight. No reason to spend money if I don't need to. 

 

I'd still love to see somebody do a proper video of changing out a cartridge. 

[dethrock]

If ajxd is telling you that you don't need a new counterweight, you don't need a new counterweight.

[bearchuck]

Sweet Moses ... I'm gong to stab myself in the eye if this thread goes on any longer.

 

No personal experience with the Debut III, but this is direct from the manual (http://www.project-audio.com/inhalt/en/manual/manual_debut.pdf)

 

"The counterweight supplied is suitable for cartridges weighing between 3,5 - 5,5g.  Alternative counterweights for cartridges weighing 6 - 9g or 1,5 - 3g are available as accessory parts."

 

To me, that sounds like you would need a heavier weight, but it could just be Pro-Ject attempting to bilk you out of an additional $20.  There's no substitute for trying shit yourself, so install the 2M Red and see if you can get the tonearm balanced properly.

 

As for how to install the cartridge, it's easy.  First, make sure that you keep the stylus guard on until you reach the alignment stage.  If you don't have a guard / cover, remove the stylus from the cart while you're attaching it to the tonearm.  Unless of course you're really confident and have super-steady hands.

 

To attach the cart, fasten it to the headshell with the supplied screws, but don't tighten them yet.  It should be secure, but loose enough that you can move the cartridge back and forth in the slots with some minor effort.

 

Next, attach the wires.  A small pair of needle nose pliers works best.  Be gentle, patient and steady ... and don't tug / push too hard.

 

As for what wires attach to which pin, again, it's in the manual.  The pins on the back of the 2M should have a letter and a plus / minus corresponding to each ... probably R+, R-, L+ and L-.  R is the right channel and L is the left channel.  + indicates the positive (duh) and - is the ground.

 

R+ = red

R- = green

L+ = white

L- = blue

 

The wire leads should fit snugly over the pins.  You shouldn't have to struggle much when putting them on, but there will probably be some resistance.

 

So now you have your cartridge loosely mounted on the tonearm and hopefully you've attached the wires correctly.  Now it's time to dial in your tracking force, alignment and all that jazz.  Do yourself a favor and sign up for an account on vinylengine.com. Next, download and print out this free alignment protractor: http://www.vinylengine.com/ve_downloads/index.php?stupid_protractors.pdf

 

Finally, watch this video.  It's the best one I've seen in regards to the basics of setting up your turntable.  It's 30 minutes long, but well worth your time.  No one on this board is going to post anything better in terms of aligning your cartridge.  Trust me.

 

[bossdj26]

You're wrong. You don't need to swap counterweights.

 

Thanks

[Daniel Dopp]

Sweet Moses ... I'm gong to stab myself in the eye if this thread goes on any longer.

 

No personal experience with the Debut III, but this is direct from the manual (http://www.project-audio.com/inhalt/en/manual/manual_debut.pdf)

 

"The counterweight supplied is suitable for cartridges weighing between 3,5 - 5,5g.  Alternative counterweights for cartridges weighing 6 - 9g or 1,5 - 3g are available as accessory parts."

 

To me, that sounds like you would need a heavier weight, but it could just be Pro-Ject attempting to bilk you out of an additional $20.  There's no substitute for trying shit yourself, so install the 2M Red and see if you can get the tonearm balanced properly.

 

As for how to install the cartridge, it's easy.  First, make sure that you keep the stylus guard on until you reach the alignment stage.  If you don't have a guard / cover, remove the stylus from the cart while you're attaching it to the tonearm.  Unless of course you're really confident and have super-steady hands.

 

To attach the cart, fasten it to the headshell with the supplied screws, but don't tighten them yet.  It should be secure, but loose enough that you can move the cartridge back and forth in the slots with some minor effort.

 

Next, attach the wires.  A small pair of needle nose pliers works best.  Be gentle, patient and steady ... and don't tug / push too hard.

 

As for what wires attach to which pin, again, it's in the manual.  The pins on the back of the 2M should have a letter and a plus / minus corresponding to each ... probably R+, R-, L+ and L-.  R is the right channel and L is the left channel.  + indicates the positive (duh) and - is the ground.

 

R+ = red

R1 = green

L+ = white

L- = blue

 

The wire leads should fit snugly over the pins.  You shouldn't have to struggle much when putting them on, but there will probably be some resistance.

 

So now you have your cartridge loosely mounted on the tonearm and hopefully you've attached the wires correctly.  Now it's time to dial in your tracking force, alignment and all that jazz.  Do yourself a favor and sign up for an account on vinylengine.com. Next, download and print out this free alignment protractor: http://www.vinylengine.com/ve_downloads/index.php?stupid_protractors.pdf

 

Finally, watch this video.  It's the best one I've seen in regards to the basics of setting up your turntable.  It's 30 minutes long, but well worth your time.  No one on this board is going to post anything better in terms of aligning your cartridge.  Trust me.

 

 

This is exactly what I was hoping for. Thank you very much. 

[slinch]

What bearchuck said.

 

To add to the confusion regarding counterweights, it's always better to have a heavier weight. Not that you can just put anything up there, but anything that's specifically made for your tonearm should be considered.

 

The thing is, you might be able to balance the tonearm with a heavier cart than optimal for the counterweight you have on, but to do so you'll get a really big distance between the pivot and the weight. To get slightly technical, you can achieve balance either with a heavier weight closer to the pivot or a lighter weight further away from the pivot. In both cases, the tonearm will be perfectly balanced, and in both cases you can set it up to track at the appropriate tracking force. But there is a big difference in how the tonearm will behave with any anomaly on the record. If the record is even slightly warped, the up-down motion of the tonearm will be much longer with the weight further from the pivot, which basically means the cart will either lose traction or the tracking force will decrease for a longer period. Which of course will have negative effects on the sound reproduction.

 

So even if you can use the lighter weight than recommended, it won't work as well as a heavier one.

 

Then there's also the vast array of custom weights that allow for a much lower center of gravity, the benefits of which deserve their own post, should there ever be a need for one 

[bossdj26]

What bearchuck said.

 

To add to the confusion regarding counterweights, it's always better to have a heavier weight. Not that you can just put anything up there, but anything that's specifically made for your tonearm should be considered.

 

The thing is, you might be able to balance the tonearm with a heavier cart than optimal for the counterweight you have on, but to do so you'll get a really big distance between the pivot and the weight. To get slightly technical, you can achieve balance either with a heavier weight closer to the pivot or a lighter weight further away from the pivot. In both cases, the tonearm will be perfectly balanced, and in both cases you can set it up to track at the appropriate tracking force. But there is a big difference in how the tonearm will behave with any anomaly on the record. If the record is even slightly warped, the up-down motion of the tonearm will be much longer with the weight further from the pivot, which basically means the cart will either lose traction or the tracking force will decrease for a longer period. Which of course will have negative effects on the sound reproduction.

 

So even if you can use the lighter weight than recommended, it won't work as well as a heavier one.

 

Then there's also the vast array of custom weights that allow for a much lower center of gravity, the benefits of which deserve their own post, should there ever be a need for one 

 

Heh, apparently some people would rather jimmy rig their expensive audio equipment instead

[3arl]

Heh, apparently some people would rather jimmy rig their expensive audio equipment instead

Jerry rigging would be taping nickels to it, not adjusting an ADJUSTABLE COUNTERWEIGHT. If you want to spend 20 extra bucks, fine. But it doesn't change the laws of physics. It's a simple moment balance. After some quick math, the counterweight needs to move back (roughly) just over a quarter inch. AKA not much at all.

[slinch]

And for those willing to experiment to get the best out of their carts, here's a great article on alignment/setup: http://www.vacuumstate.com/fileupload/GuruSetUp.pdf

[bearchuck]

And for those willing to experiment to get the best out of their carts, here's a great article on alignment/setup: http://www.vacuumstate.com/fileupload/GuruSetUp.pdf

 

Interesting. Slinch - do you use the "guru" alignment?  Did a little big of reading up on it this weekend and I downloaded the protractor ... although I didn't get around to messing with it.

 

I did play around with the "Chpratz" Protractor, which allows you to align your cartridge using any two null points. I chose ones suggested by the tonearm manufacturer; for the G-704, Grace indicates 67 and 103.  I also re-adjusted my overhang to 15 mm as it was a little off from the last time I measured.  Haven't had a chance to listen much, but we'll give it a go this week to see if there's any noticeable improvement.

[slinch]

I'll be honest, I'm pretty lazy when it comes to fiddling with details. I usually set it up quickly, then do a bit of tweaking by ear and leave it at that. Then a week or so later I decide to give it another go and so on.

 

I use the simple protractor tat came with my Debut table way back when, and the Guru one. I remember downloading the Chpratz one years ago, but I don't think I ever used it. Might give it a go, I've been meaning to realign my cart for days now because something just keeps bothering me lately, maybe I just listened to so many records with horrible inner groove distortion, but then again, maybe it's the alignment.

[rrd]

 

Installing is the easy part...alignment is a pain in the buns...still not sure if i ever got mine 100% where it should be but i'm impressed with the sound

 

fyi, you will need a heavier counterweight with the 2M Red on a stock debut iii

 

i believe this is the weight you need....i would double check the 2M's weight again

 

http://www.needledoctor.com/Pro-Ject-75g-Counterweight-for-Debut-Xpression

 

• Pro-Ject Debut: 55g counterweight, cartridges 1.5-3g
• Pro-Ject Debut: 65g counterweight, cartridges 3.5-5.5g
• Pro-Ject Debut: 75g counterweight, cartridges 6-9g

 

 

i just switched from the om5e to the 2m blue and the 65g counterweight defintely doesn't work correctly, the weight has to sit further out on the tonearm that it should and whatever little channel or whatever that 'screws' when you adjust the weight doesn't exist that far out

every time i would get the arm balanced, and then try and adjust the tracking force the weight would slip and i'd have to re-float the tone arm again, it was impossible to dial in. to 'rig it' for now I added some modelling putty to the back of the counterweight which allowed me to move it further up and so the weight can be adjusted