Last track usually sounds terrible, best cartridge to minimize problem?

[RobSag]

We know that it's a simple matter of physics, vinyl records sound progressively worse as the stylus travels towards the center, it's the problem with constant linear velocity as I read in many places. Depending on the manufacturing quality of the record, this is more or less noticeable. I have some records where the last song sounds decent (but of course never as good as the first or second song), and I have some so bad that even the previous to last song sounds with the typical distortion and poor quality of the last song. This becomes much more evident if your stylus is really worn out, it's night and day when you put a new stylus, but it's still evident.

 

On most records, the problem becomes really annoying on the last song. I've been reading a lot of articles and forum posts on this and I was disappointed that even people with expensive turntables and cartridges/styli can hear the poor quality of the last track on many records.

 

Some records are surprising. As I write this I'm listening to an original release of Mike Oldfield's Tubular Bells, and this is not a 180g or any high quality release, it's a barebones American original release. And yet, it's almost all the way to the center and I can't hear any of the ugliness typical of the last song. And this is on a cheap $100 Denon turntable (I have something better on the way).

 

What are your opinions and findings on this? Is there any specific turntable with cartridge and stylus that you found does a better job of minimizing this problem? After many decades of not using vinyl records I started building a collection again, and I love the sound of vinyl, but to me it's like if I have to compare the sound of vinyl to CD, it varies, because the first half of a record side I would prefer vinyl, but the second half as it reaches the center I prefer CD because on CD all the songs sound the same.

 

Thanks,

 

Rob

[slinch]

Tangential tonearm.

 

/end thread

 

(of course it isn't a universal solution. For best result you still need an album that was properly mastered, preferably cut in 45 rpm with very low runtime per side, the groove ending further away from the centre label, pressed with high QC on heavyweight vinyl)

[RobSag]

Thanks for your reply. I didn't know what that was so I looked it up. Most likely turntables that have that tonearm are prohibitively expensive and for extreme audiophiles. I was thinking more in terms of a specific cartridge/stylus.

[necroking]

I use an AT120E. I find it tracks the entire record very well, no inner groove distortion, and has a great sound.

[zuck]

I thought I've read that the AT44MLA is really good for IGD as well.

[necroking]

I thought I've read that the AT44MLA is really good for IGD as well.

Yes it is, but it favors highs more than anything, the 120e is pretty even accross the whole sound spectrum, that is why I prefer it.

[RobSag]

I use an AT120E. I find it tracks the entire record very well, no inner groove distortion, and has a great sound.

 

So you're referring to just the stylus, correct? Meaning that I could buy the stylus and put it in the 95E cartridge that comes with the AT-LP120 turntable? Or do I have to still buy a new cartridge? And do you know how the Shure M97xE cartridge compares to the AT120E? Because that's the one I ordered, but I'm still in time to cancel it.

[necroking]

I prefer the 120e. As I said it has a great sound high, mid, and low. Broad soundstage, overall warm sound. This will fit right in to the cart that comes with the atlp120. Just pull the stock stylus out and snap this one in (if you're just buying stylus without cart). If you're getting the stylus and cart I suggest an extra headshell. I suggest buying this from turntableneedles.com they are good people. And they have combo deals (cart stylus headshell)

[ForSunday]

Yes it is, but it favors highs more than anything, the 120e is pretty even accross the whole sound spectrum, that is why I prefer it.

 

Not true, the 440MLa is very balanced and has plenty of bass. The stylus is also microline which is much better imo. IGD does not exist with the 440 and it wears less due to the angled profile. There are drawbacks like having to be more careful with scratched records as it damages easier. Both great cartridges though, the styluses are interchangeable.

[xxmartinxx]

I've never experienced inner groove distortion on any of my turntables, but if you are you want to make sure of a few things.  Obviously, a well tracking cart is important but perhaps more important is the proper set up.  This means that the table must be level, the anti skate set properly, the tracking force set within spec (preferably towards the high side of spec), and the cart is aligned with a good protractor.  

[ForSunday]

I've tried both Stenvenson and Baerwald protractors on my SL-1200 and still not really experienced noticeable distortion or sibilance at any point. There are many ways you can align depending what your preference is, I really want a test record to test the limits and set my anti-skate correctly.

[RobSag]

I prefer the 120e. As I said it has a great sound high, mid, and low. Broad soundstage, overall warm sound. This will fit right in to the cart that comes with the atlp120. Just pull the stock stylus out and snap this one in (if you're just buying stylus without cart). If you're getting the stylus and cart I suggest an extra headshell. I suggest buying this from turntableneedles.com they are good people. And they have combo deals (cart stylus headshell)

Would you say the 120E is better than the Shure M97xE cartridge and stylus? I'm asking because the stylus is about $80 something, slightly more expensive than the Shure M97xE, but I won't mind if I can just put it in the 95E cartridge that comes with the ATLP120 turntable. The Shure has plenty of great reviews, and my reason for buying it was that it seems to be the updated v15 which was supposed to be great to avoid the last song problem. The Shure is being prepared for shipping, but I'm still in time to cancel it and order the 120E. I will go with the one that gives me the best sound for the last song, because that's the only thing about vinyl records that drives me up the wall. Maybe I should order both and return the one that I like the least, even if I have to pay for shipping back.

[necroking]

Yes you could order both, bur idk about returning a used cart. Its all a matter of preference and in my opinion the 120e is better and assuming you set it up correctly the last track should sound as good as the first.

[allenh]

Are you sure your cartridge is properly aligned? at worst IGD should be an annoyance not overwhelming.

[necroking]

And yes this stylus fits right into the lp120 stock cart.

[RobSag]

Are you sure your cartridge is properly aligned? at worst IGD should be an annoyance not overwhelming.

 

Well, the "thing" I have as of now doesn't have much alignment so to speak, it's a $100 that I got at Best Buy and I'm going to return it because it's awful. However, I think that when I receive the Audio Technica turntable, even with the stock cartridge and stylus, it's going to be a big difference, and hopefully it will avoid some skips I have with this one. In the 80's when I was a teenager I had this cheap Sansui that wasn't that great either, but if it skipped you would see a scratch in the record. Otherwise, it would never skip. Today I went to a used record store and bought a few records. The Police's Synchronicity is one of them, and it looks absolutely flawless even with a magnifying glass, but it skipped on the first song, and there are many more records I also bought used and look perfect, but they skip at certain places. I get a feeling this cheap Denon might be playing a part in that.

[RobSag]

The other problem is that the Shure M97xE was basically free. I took that Amazon deal that they give you a $70 gift card if you sign up for their credit card, so I did that, and I still had to pay something because I also ordered the Shure gauge, but it was a great deal for those two things. I'm not sure if returning it I would get back the gift card, to then apply to the 120E stylus. I guess I'll try the Shure one, my guess is that it's going to be a huge step up compared to this crappy Denon player.

[xxmartinxx]

The other problem is that the Shure M97xE was basically free. I took that Amazon deal that they give you a $70 gift card if you sign up for their credit card, so I did that, and I still had to pay something because I also ordered the Shure gauge, but it was a great deal for those two things. I'm not sure if returning it I would get back the gift card, to then apply to the 120E stylus. I guess I'll try the Shure one, my guess is that it's going to be a huge step up compared to this crappy Denon player.

 

You're still going to need to align the cartridge.  

[RobSag]

You're still going to need to align the cartridge.  

 

I suppose, I'll have to look up information on how to do that, I have no idea how it's done but I'm sure there are tutorials on YouTube or somewhere else.

[xxmartinxx]

Michael Fremer has a few on YouTube.

[RobSag]

Thanks, I'll look them up.

 

After a few days of listening to some used records I bought in this crappy Denon, I think the quality of mastering and manufacturing has a lot to do with it as well. Yesterday I listened to Mike Oldfield's Tubular Bells. No distortion even at the closest to the center. Today I bought "Five Miles Out" also from Mike Oldfield. I just finished listening to Side A, which is all one long song, and the end is really heavy on instrumentation and lots of highs. Also no distortion, and I'm talking about the cheapest Denon turntable sold right now. Not only that, but the sound in this album is excellent.

[allenh]

If you have one of those cheap Denon's that is the same as the AT60 and all other similar cheap rubbish then you have no adjustments whatsoever.

 

Wait until the AT120 turns up download a setup protractor, watch the you tube videos, make sure it's set up properly in all directions and forces and weights and then enjoy.

 

The cheapest equipment still needs to be properly set up to give it's best but these really cheap units that don't offer any or minimal adjustments don't really give you a chance and should be avoided.

 

Hopefully it is just out of alignment and not wanting to scare you but if you were getting excessive IGD with this thing it may well have already worn your records. The IGD can come from dragging bearings which cause the stylus to push against the groove walls and wear a new groove.

[RobSag]

Wait until the AT120 turns up download a setup protractor, watch the you tube videos, make sure it's set up properly in all directions and forces and weights and then enjoy.

 

Hopefully it is just out of alignment and not wanting to scare you but if you were getting excessive IGD with this thing it may well have already worn your records. The IGD can come from dragging bearings which cause the stylus to push against the groove walls and wear a new groove.

 

Probably not, I've had it for less than a week and I only listened to each record once or twice. I doubt it did any damage, the tracking force is really light, at least compared to other turntables I've had and friends had.

 

Now, for the AT-LP120 with the Shure M97xE cartridge/stylus, which is the right protractor?

 

And what other things do I need to do to optimize this turntable and cart/stylus combination? I know the cartridge comes with some kind of tool, I can't find now what it was. Plus, I also bought the Shure SFG-2 Stylus Tracking Force Gauge. Then I read a guy's review that said he got the best highs by setting the tracking force to 1.1. Any other adjustments I need to make?

 

Also, is there any point in mounting the cartridge with the screws upside down? In the manual it says: "Note: screws can be threaded up from the bottom to provide maximum record clearance." But I don't see the point of that, it's not like the screws are going to touch the record if they are mounted the top to bottom.

[allenh]

Probably not, I've had it for less than a week and I only listened to each record once or twice. I doubt it did any damage, the tracking force is really light, at least compared to other turntables I've had and friends had.

 

Now, for the AT-LP120 with the Shure M97xE cartridge/stylus, which is the right protractor?

 

And what other things do I need to do to optimize this turntable and cart/stylus combination? I know the cartridge comes with some kind of tool, I can't find now what it was. Plus, I also bought the Shure SFG-2 Stylus Tracking Force Gauge. Then I read a guy's review that said he got the best highs by setting the tracking force to 1.1. Any other adjustments I need to make?

 

Also, is there any point in mounting the cartridge with the screws upside down? In the manual it says: "Note: screws can be threaded up from the bottom to provide maximum record clearance." But I don't see the point of that, it's not like the screws are going to touch the record if they are mounted the top to bottom.

 

Ok should be good then wear wise.

 

There are several protractors and it comes down to the one you feel most comfortable using, they each do slightly different things like where the null points are and it's to do with which arc they use so you want one that suits a Technics 1200 as that is what your turntable and arm geometry are based on. I downloaded a few and tried them all until I found the one I was most comfortable with and stuck with it.

 

Tracking weight is dictated by the cartridge data +/- a small amount but if it wants 2g and you run it at 1.1g that's way out. Next is the bias or anti skate which should be roughly half the tracking force but again this has some variance in it and there are different schools of thought on that.

 

Basically as long as it is correctly aligned with a protractor, the VTA (tracking angle of the cartridge) is right and the forces are within what the maker says for the cart you will be there or there about's, there is wiggle room in the forces and the VTA and these are down to personal taste but should always be within what the cartridge maker gives as limits.

[RobSag]

Ok should be good then wear wise.

 

There are several protractors and it comes down to the one you feel most comfortable using, they each do slightly different things like where the null points are and it's to do with which arc they use so you want one that suits a Technics 1200 as that is what your turntable and arm geometry are based on. I downloaded a few and tried them all until I found the one I was most comfortable with and stuck with it.

 

I thought that more than trying them out it was a matter of using the right one for my specific turntable and cartridge/stylus. The Shure M97xE comes with a protractor. I already received it but I'm hesitant to open it because of the advice people gave me here about the Audio Technica AT120E stylus. From reading dozens of reviews about the Shure M97xE I got two things, that the highs are a bit muffled, and that it's pretty good at dealing with the last song problem. On the other hand, I don't know if the difference in highs with other carts/styli is drastic, or if it's just a notch or two on the 8 and 16 Khz bands. My turntable is connected using phono to a small Pyramid mixer, which has its own bass and treble, then from there it goes to an 80's Sansui EQ, and from there to the receiver, so if the Shure has a small difference it's not a super big deal. I mean, it has over 300 reviews on Amazon and everybody praises it, but my main concern here is, between the Shure M97xE and the Audio Technica AT120E, which one is better at handling inner groove distortion? Has anybody here tested both?

 

By the way, do you really think the Denon could damage records? It doesn't seem to have too much tracking force. I just received a couple of Foo Fighters brand new sealed records that I'm eager to play, but I won't if they will get damaged.

 

Update: to answer my own question, this Denon is much heavier than I thought. I put the Shure Gauge and it was heavier than the maximum of 1.5 grams, so I looked up the specs and the pressure is 3.5 grams. That's excessive, right? I mean, that kind of pressure is probably not too kind on records, is it?