allenh Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 Most cartridge manufacturers have graphs of their output against frequency you can get hold of but a lot depends on the kit it is fitted to and playing through though so with all of this it is a matter of trying it and making your own opinion. everything in the chain has limitations that will affect the sound in one way or another which is part of the fun/annoyance with hifi as you are trying to tailor a sound you like. You can adjust either end of the range with VTA adjustments though, it's not an ideal way of doing it as you are effectively masking a problem but if it works for you then ok. most carts are in the 1.5 to 2.5g range but 3.5 is not unheard of, it all depends how stiff the suspension and cantilever are. The problem with most of this cheap rubbish is that if it's out on any way there is nothing you can do about it and obviously the quality control is not exactly to the highest standards. Any TT can damage a record but with something with poor quality components, poor quality control and no means of putting it right it's more likely, never buy used records from anyone who owns a Crosley for instance. Back in the day the old Decca cartridges which are much prized sounded amazing for the time but used to wear their own groove and buying 2nd hand records from someone with a Decca was never a good idea. Don't get too caught up in the minutiae though, as long as you are within the parameter limits of the equipment, get it about right and where it sounds about right to you and that is good enough, you get a feel and an ear for it after a while and any cartridge that needs you to be minutely accurate is not a good cartridge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobSag Posted August 5, 2014 Author Share Posted August 5, 2014 Any TT can damage a record but with something with poor quality components, poor quality control and no means of putting it right it's more likely, never buy used records from anyone who owns a Crosley for instance. Back in the day the old Decca cartridges which are much prized sounded amazing for the time but used to wear their own groove and buying 2nd hand records from someone with a Decca was never a good idea. Don't get too caught up in the minutiae though, as long as you are within the parameter limits of the equipment, get it about right and where it sounds about right to you and that is good enough, you get a feel and an ear for it after a while and any cartridge that needs you to be minutely accurate is not a good cartridge. Well, I hope none of the previous owners of my records had a Decca or a Crosley then, because I just got like 40 used records from two stores. And I'm happy about them, most of this stuff I couldn't have gotten sealed brand new even if I was rich, and besides new vinyl is grossly expensive compared to CDs or iTunes. Don't get me wrong, I was a teenager when vinyl was the only option, and I love it, but between the price of new records, a basic decent turntable and cartridge/stylus (we should start naming that "carlus" or "cartylus") it can get steep pretty fast. I sent an email to Amazon to check if I can return the M97xE after I opened it, if they say yes I'll install it, calibrate it and listen to my records, and see how it sounds. I've read close to a hundred reviews from people that say it's the best thing in the world, and several others that say it's muffled and lacks highs, but the only way to know for sure is to test it myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allenh Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 I wouldn't worry to much about worn vinyl it's usually pretty easy to spot using strong light but you should always look at used vinyl as closely as you can and hopefully most of the Crosley owners just hang their vinyl on walls anyway. Yes welcome back to the world of vinyl, it can be expensive yes but over time you work out what's good and the more you listen to the easier that is. I doubt Amazon will take it back after you open it but having a spare cart if you really don't like it is no bad thing. You've bought it now so I would install it and try it, you have the AT that came with your AT120 so you already have two to try and see which way you want to go sound wise. you have two points of reference now and both should do different things better than the other. Pick up another headshell so you can swap them about easily. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobSag Posted August 5, 2014 Author Share Posted August 5, 2014 I wouldn't worry to much about worn vinyl it's usually pretty easy to spot using strong light but you should always look at used vinyl as closely as you can and hopefully most of the Crosley owners just hang their vinyl on walls anyway. Yes welcome back to the world of vinyl, it can be expensive yes but over time you work out what's good and the more you listen to the easier that is. I doubt Amazon will take it back after you open it but having a spare cart if you really don't like it is no bad thing. You've bought it now so I would install it and try it, you have the AT that came with your AT120 so you already have two to try and see which way you want to go sound wise. you have two points of reference now and both should do different things better than the other. Pick up another headshell so you can swap them about easily. Well, the thing is that I already spent way too much money on this for now, and having a spare cart is not something I'd like, I'd rather spend that money on more records. Also, somebody here posted that the AT120E stylus would fit in the AT95E cart that comes with the turntable, however, doesn't the cartridge also have some influence in the sound quality as well? I mean, the AT120E styles comes either by itself or as part of the AT120ET cart. So wouldn't the cart that they sell with it be better than the AT95E? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allenh Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 Quite often the only change is the stylus and cantilever, the cartridge body and coils etc can be the same throughout a whole range, also the makers tend to change the body slightly when the coils change. All this means that if you have a a cartridge low in a range you can just change the stylus in many cases for a quick upgrade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobSag Posted August 5, 2014 Author Share Posted August 5, 2014 Gotcha, thanks. I'm also reading that even better than the Shure M97xE with the stock stylus and better than the Audio Technica carts, even the more expensive ones, is the M97xE with the Jico SAS stylus, apparently it beats even the AT-150MLx, which is a $350 cartus. In that case it would make sense to keep the Shure, because with that Amazon gift card it was essentially free, so in the near future I can order the SAS for $167, which is really hefty but if it's as good as it's supposed to be, then it's worth it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobSag Posted August 5, 2014 Author Share Posted August 5, 2014 I just found this test of a M97xE on YouTube, and obviously the audio file is highly compressed like everything on YouTube, but still sounds really good to my ears, on Audio Technica ATH-M40x headphones, connected to a Pioneer VSX-1020 receiver. The music goes into it from the computer through an M-Audio M-Track Plus audio interface, which sounds better than the onboard audio. If the guy is actually showing the sound being filmed, it's the last song in the record and I can't hear any inner groove distortion. I don't like the song at all, but it sounds great, and it doesn't seem muffled at all to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobSag Posted August 5, 2014 Author Share Posted August 5, 2014 Even better, this person posted a great comparison between the Shure and the AT440. It seems to me that the At440 is too bright, except if the record itself was too muffled. For example, the Steely Dan record he tests sounds better on the AT440, but it's about the only one. The others sound too bright, and the Saxon song is almost unbearable on the AT440, while it sounds great on the M97xE. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allenh Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 The problem with these is if they have the VTA wrong it can make a lot of difference, plus a digital recording really is no substitute for being in front of the speakers. Also one of the guys on here had the Shure with the SAS stylus and he changed it out for an AT440, have a look in the cartridge advice thread but you really have to hear this stuff on your own gear to make a proper decision, A digital recording just won't do it. A LP is not like anything digital there are so many electrical and mechanical variables that can make a big difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobSag Posted August 5, 2014 Author Share Posted August 5, 2014 The problem with these is if they have the VTA wrong it can make a lot of difference, plus a digital recording really is no substitute for being in front of the speakers. Sorry, I'm going to need some education here, what's VTA? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobSag Posted August 5, 2014 Author Share Posted August 5, 2014 Sorry, I'm going to need some education here, what's VTA? Nevermind, I found it. Vertical Tracking Angle, for newbies like me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobSag Posted August 5, 2014 Author Share Posted August 5, 2014 The problem with these is if they have the VTA wrong it can make a lot of difference, plus a digital recording really is no substitute for being in front of the speakers. Also one of the guys on here had the Shure with the SAS stylus and he changed it out for an AT440, have a look in the cartridge advice thread but you really have to hear this stuff on your own gear to make a proper decision, A digital recording just won't do it. A LP is not like anything digital there are so many electrical and mechanical variables that can make a big difference. Sure, but it's better than nothing. I mean, unless I buy both, adjust them, record a bunch of songs to my computer and compare them, or even better, having two of the same TT, one with each cart, and each with the same set of records, with a mixer switching back and forth, this video gives me a good idea of what to expect. Especially since one of the records, Dixie Dregs, I have it, so I can do my own test and compare it. Here's the weird thing. The AT440 is noticeably brighter, but I cut and paste that Dixie Dreggs song to two different files, and I set the start to the same exact point, at least by ear and eye, in Audition, and then went to a point in the song where there's a double snare drum. I set the cursor over the same exact spot, and I was surprised to see that the M97xE shows more highs than the AT440, or at least it seems that the roll-off after 16k is more pronounced on the AT440 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allenh Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 There is no substitute for your ears and the time taken to audition things. By all means do your research and then make a choice and stick to it, sometimes these things grow on you as they have to break in over time and nobody hears what your ears hear so over time you form your own opinions and stick to them By all means take peoples advice as all information can be useful but someone’s advice will always be coloured by what they like. There is a horrible affliction that engineers and people who spend way too much on their systems without taking the time to actually listen fall into and that is worrying about the technicalities of the equipment more than the music. In both my private and professional life I've met plenty of them and they really do miss the point. You really can't beat listening to things because it's your ears that you want to please, no end of test specs or sample files can speed that process along because you discount something because the graphs and specs say it's crap and then years later you listen to it and go I actually like that. I listen to vinyl records with valve (tube) amplification, on paper that is crap compared to a high sample rate FLAC file and solid state amplification but to my ears there is no comparison but to someone else it's exactly what they want, and it's that factor that can not be represented on a graph or with a set of specification values. Try the AT as it is then try the Shure and see which you prefer, but remember there is a break in period so you have to give these things time to give their best. Hifi can be very very frustrating and very very rewarding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobSag Posted August 5, 2014 Author Share Posted August 5, 2014 One quick question, I got the AT-LP120 turntable and I still haven't installed the Shure cart, I have been recording some songs to my computer so I can make a comparison at least between the included cart (AT95E) and the Shure. Now, as far as the height adjustment of the whole arm, the only thing on the manual about it is that for the included cart it has to be left at 0. Does anybody know if that's the same for the M97xE? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
necroking Posted August 6, 2014 Share Posted August 6, 2014 You shoud adjust the VTA so that when the needle is on the record the tone arm is level. On this TT 0 is the standard setting for most basic carts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobSag Posted August 6, 2014 Author Share Posted August 6, 2014 OK, after a couple of hours of trying to fit those damn tiny screws I finally installed the Shure cartridge and aligned it, or so I think. Is it possible that if it's properly aligned with a protractor the cartridge is a bit diagonal to the headshell? I mean, I've never seen that before, but if I have to align it using either the protractor that came with the Shure or a Stevenson that is supposed to be the optimal for this turntable, it ends up being angled. If I set it straight like the one that came was mounted, then it's not aligned to the lines in the protractors, or to the records. After the alignment I did, the cart seems in perfect alignment with the grooves. The sound is pretty good, so I don't think it's totally wrong, but I'm just surprised because I've never seen the cartridge at an angle to the headshell. Here's what I'm talking about: Is this normal? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
circuit bored records Posted August 6, 2014 Share Posted August 6, 2014 Did you set the overhang? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobSag Posted August 6, 2014 Author Share Posted August 6, 2014 Did you set the overhang? Isn't setting overhang what the protractor is for? Basically I aligned it to the perpendicular lines, because this cart has like a rounded bottom, it's not easy to adjust using the Shure protractor, which only has lines in the direction of the cartridge. The other one, which I got from here: http://scouringthebins.blogspot.com/2013/03/tweaking-audio-technica-at-lp120.html also has perpendicular lines, and makes it easier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
circuit bored records Posted August 6, 2014 Share Posted August 6, 2014 Isn't setting overhang what the protractor is for? Basically I aligned it to the perpendicular lines, because this cart has like a rounded bottom, it's not easy to adjust using the Shure protractor, which only has lines in the direction of the cartridge. The other one, which I got from here: http://scouringthebins.blogspot.com/2013/03/tweaking-audio-technica-at-lp120.html also has perpendicular lines, and makes it easier.The overhang is different than the alignment, it's how far the stylus extends past the spindle. Aligning it won't tell you how far forward or back the cartridge should be placed on the headshell (you see the room in front and behind the screws in your picture, the cartridge can be slid back or forth). Some turntables you can look the actual measurement up but a quick google search turns this up;http://www.needledoctor.com/Technics-Overhang-Gauge I mean, if it sounds good by all means keep it the way it is. It's just another measurement to make sure you are getting the best performance out of your cartridge and turntable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobSag Posted August 6, 2014 Author Share Posted August 6, 2014 The overhang is different than the alignment, it's how far the stylus extends past the spindle. Aligning it won't tell you how far forward or back the cartridge should be placed on the headshell (you see the room in front and behind the screws in your picture, the cartridge can be slid back or forth). Some turntables you can look the actual measurement up but a quick google search turns this up; http://www.needledoctor.com/Technics-Overhang-Gauge So the overhang can only be set with that gauge, not a protractor? I will get it, but what I'd like to know first is if it's normal to have the cartridge at an angle to the headshell, like mine is in the pictures I took. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xxmartinxx Posted August 6, 2014 Share Posted August 6, 2014 How does it sound? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobSag Posted August 6, 2014 Author Share Posted August 6, 2014 How does it sound? I would say pretty good, I'm not sure why they say this cart is lacking in highs, to me it sounds great. Inner groove distortion is still there on some albums, but I'm thinking that if the album was mastered like crap it's going to sound that way. I only have two brand new albums by Foo Fighters, both of which sound perfect from start to end, and my batch of about 40 used albums that I got in the past few days, it's hit and miss, some don't have any IGD, others a lot. The last song of side A of the St. Elmo's Fire soundtrack has a lame song that I'm pretty sure will be distorted even with the best audiophile cart/stylus. That's the worst case, the others are not so bad but still more or less noticeable depending on the album. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobSag Posted August 6, 2014 Author Share Posted August 6, 2014 One thing I noticed on two albums though, is that the first track has some weird noise on the right channel, but it could be because they had been played on bad turntables by their previous owners. I hadn't noticed that when playing them on the Denon, but it could be that I wasn't paying attention. I would be worried about it if the two new records I have had that problem, or if most of them had it, but it's not the case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allenh Posted August 6, 2014 Share Posted August 6, 2014 The manual should give you a guide to setting the overhang, is it not on the reverse side of your protractor?. The Shure and the AT carts should have pretty similar mounting points but there may be a difference in them. You can set a cart up at an angle, it's not ideal but if it works. I'm guessing your protractor only has one measuring point? The better ones have two and if you are only setting at one point on the arc and not setting the overhang I bet that's why you have an angled cart and still have some IGD. Set the overhang and see if that straightens it up on the protractor and download a couple more protractors from the vinyl engine site, you might need to set up an account but its free and there is loads of useful info up there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobSag Posted August 6, 2014 Author Share Posted August 6, 2014 The manual should give you a guide to setting the overhang, is it not on the reverse side of your protractor?. No, there's nothing on the reverse side, or in the manual about how it works. I'm guessing your protractor only has one measuring point? The better ones have two and if you are only setting at one point on the arc and not setting the overhang I bet that's why you have an angled cart and still have some IGD. Set the overhang and see if that straightens it up on the protractor and download a couple more protractors from the vinyl engine site, you might need to set up an account but its free and there is loads of useful info up there. No, it has two points, I scanned it so you can see exactly how it is: The thing is, it doesn't matter how far or close I set the cart in the headshell, if I set it straight to the headshell, there is no way I can align it to the lines. I just tried again, and whether the art is all the way to the front, at the center, or rear, it just doesn't align to the lines unless I twist it. But then I think I saw that the cantilever wasn't exactly straight with the cart, although my eyes could be tricking me with something so small, and I don't have a good quality magnifying glass to check that properly, just a cheap plastic one. But if that's the case, then adjusting the cart straight to the lines would also be kind of useless, because in the end, what has to be perfectly straight is the cantilever, and unless I shrink down to a micron or so, or develop X-ray vision (to see through the headshell and cartridge) then how do I adjust that? This is giving me a headache. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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