Discogs Dilemma – Need Advice

[Derek™]

So here's the situation.  Exactly 1 month ago, I purchased a record from an international seller on Discogs.  (From France.)  Dude has 200+ Discogs feedback, with a 100% positive rating.  He's been selling for years.  Like all international sellers, the fine print in all his listings give a price breakdown of shipping.  And like all of my international purchases I've ever made, I opted for the "cheapest" shipping option.  This is usually around $15 or so, but is far less than what it'd cost to ship the record "insured" with all bases covered.

 

To reiterate, I have never purchased a record internationally and paid the $30 to have it shipped with international insurance.  To add onto that, I've never had an international buyer opt for the ~$40 insured shipping when I send record their way.

 

Basically, what I'm saying, is that in the 7 years I've been buying and selling records internationally, the cheaper of the two nasty shipping costs has been all I've ever dealt with.  And it's been 100% successful in all instances... minus this current one.

 

Aside from having a very reputable Discogs rating, the seller is doing a fantastic job at communicating.  Both thoroughly, promptly, and pleasantly.  He insists that he's never had a problem with the cheaper shipping option, either, but is still required to add that disclaimer to all his listings.  Something along the lines "If you don't opt for the more expensive, insured shipping there can be no refund in the case of lost or damaged records.  Sorry."  And that's a totally fair statement – I get that.  He's covering his tracks.  But after 30 days, I'm starting to doubt my purchase is going to show up.

 

After shipping I probably spent close to $50 on this transaction, so it's significant in my books.  I honestly don't feel like this guy is trying to play me, and I'd feel shitty trying to dispute this transaction in a worst-case scenario.  I have approximately two more weeks before the 45-day threshold is hit, and I'm hoping the record magically shows up (or is returned to sender) in that time frame.  The guy seems genuine and I really don't want him to lose out on the sale, or lose the record in the process.  I don't know how this works; if there is a way for Discogs or Paypal to refund the both of us, that would be ideal, but I'm sure one of us will end up getting the short end of the stick.

 

Anyone else been in a similar situation?  Have you been burned on an international sale just because you didn't opt for $30 shipping?  I feel like I would have read about that scenario a few times, if it indeed happens.  But all of this is new to me.  Any advice or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

[Mourning Wood]

Man, I have had every kind of fucked up shipping delay you can image, with tracking showing records going everywhere but the moon! My guess is your record will show up. Shipping in general is totally unpredictable. International shipping even more so.

I would be a stand up dude and give the seller the benefit and wait another two weeks. I would open the paypal claim at the 45 day window to cya. Of course I'd immediately pay him if the record shows up once I put in the claim. And I'd also I'd send him some $$$ as a gift to share the loss if the record never shows up.

Karma, man. Remember it, because it will never forget you.

[TFP]

I got to the second to last paragraph to say this - It is 180 days now (6 months) to open a PayPal dispute

[Derek™]

Man, I have had every kind of fucked up shipping delay you can image, with tracking showing records going everywhere but the moon! My guess is your record will show up. Shipping in general is totally unpredictable. International shipping even more so.

I would be a stand up dude and give the seller the benefit and wait another two weeks. I would open the paypal claim at the 45 day window to cya. Of course I'd immediately pay him if the record shows up once I put in the claim. And I'd also I'd send him some $$$ as a gift to share the loss if the record never shows up.

Karma, man. Remember it, because it will never forget you.

 

I like the thoughts on all of this.  I definitely planned to wait right up until the 45th day before opening a case.  (And I will absolutely be contacting him a few more times before that deadline was upon us.)  I am really not looking to exploit anyone here, and he seems like a good-enough dude that I really wouldn't mind partially compensating him for a loss if that's what it comes down to.

[Derek™]

I got to the second to last paragraph to say this - It is 180 days now (6 months) to open a PayPal dispute

 

I recall hearing about this a while back, I think.  Pretty ridiculous, but good to know.  I'm also aware, however, that Discogs' cutoff is not 180 days.  I believe anything over 90 days gets locked down and is unable to be disputed.

[youspinmeround]

I just had a similar issue.

dude had no proof of mailing or customs..said he just put stamps on it (it was a 7 inch)

He had over 800 positive

I don't think you could get a package into us without a custom form and he mailed this like a letter

I totally believe he sent it. I just never got it. I woukdnt have even bothered if he could prove he sent it.PayPal case opened and closed in 2 days.

[wynams]

If tracking shows it left seller (or he can otherwise proved he shipped it), and YOU opted for no insurance ... really sucks that you are planning on getting your money back from PayPal. Just Sayin'

[TFP]

 

I recall hearing about this a while back, I think.  Pretty ridiculous, but good to know.  I'm also aware, however, that Discogs' cutoff is not 180 days.  I believe anything over 90 days gets locked down and is unable to be disputed.

 

Oh, ok, I didn't know that about Discogs, I would just keep the open communication like you are doing and let him know of your intentions if/when you decide to do anything further. 

[billynomates]

I had a record show up just before Xmas that I ordered in April. Date on the packet was April and it said Airmail. That was USA to UK. It had been to Auckland New Zealand on its way to me in Bishop Auckland UK. Shit happens sometimes.

[Derek™]

If tracking shows it left seller (or he can otherwise proved he shipped it), and YOU opted for no insurance ... really sucks that you are planning on getting your money back from PayPal. Just Sayin'

 

Wasn't planning on anything, really.  I'm unsure how it all works, which is why this thread was created and questions were raised.  I do have a really hard time believing that there are no disputes or issued refunds for anyone who doesn't pay $30+ every time they purchase a record internationally, though.

[markok]

For whatever reasons 1 out of 10 records I either sell or buy from overseas (EU vs USA), it takes more than 30 days to arrive (Im in the EU). If possible, I would wait a week or two.

[tonyfranciosa]

FWIW, packages from Europe have been taking forever to get to me since the start of the new year. I've been looking at 6 week minimums from the UK... I'm at 8 weeks on a couple of Amazon Germany packages. But they seem to show up eventually. For the money they charge, it should not take this long.

[BeardedSteven]

I've been waiting for something from Amazon UK (to the US) for more than 2 months now. Today is the day they told me I could re-request that they ship me another if it still doesn't show up. And I will be doing that very soon. I know it's slightly different when it's an individual seller and not Amazon. And he probably doesn't have another to ship you. But still. When you sell sometimes you have to eat the $$$.... I certainly have a few times over the years when selling. 

[Derek™]

Thanks dudes.  I fully plan on waiting up to 90 days, and giving the seller the benefit of the doubt.  I'm not in a rush at all, nor am I chomping at the bit to open up a case.  I just wanted to get any advice about what I'd do on day 89.

[dreamover]

I would ask for some sort of proof that he sent it. A shipping receipt, an email confirmation, a photo of the confirmation or something. If I decide to go with un-trackable shipping from an independent seller, I ALWAYS ask for proof of shipment. Even if it's a photo of the package with stamps/customs form on it. It's better to ask before they send it, but I would ask if he has ANYTHING to put you at ease. If he does have some proof, I'd say you could open a case, but I wouldn't escalate it. He did his part, you opted out of tracking/insurance. Packages get lost and USPS doesn't take any responsibility (even if there is tracking). 

 

Neither paypal or discogs will take care of you. It's a loss. I've been in this seller's shoes a few times. I always make it clear that if international folks choose the cheapest shipping, I'm not responsible but I will give any proof they want of shipment. If it doesn't make it there because the buyer decided to go with the cheapest shipping (even though it works most of the time!), the seller should not have to pay. 

 

seems like you're pretty level-headed and just disappointed about this. I'm sure you'll do the right thing. But hopefully it shows up. 

[eight1echo]

I've been on the reverse of this situation. Shipping a record and the guy claimed he never got it. Without tracking there is no proof I sent it at all and I was forced to refund the buyer the money, and I was out a record. I don't think there is a way that both of you are going to walk away from this happy.

[Plarocks]

I actually had a $150 record package never show up here in the USA from Diverse Vinyl in the U.K.

First time ever that a record package completely vaporized. I am a long time customer for them, and they had no issue pulling the "new" records they still had in stock, and they promptly mailed me a new package, no questions asked!

Just to be "on the safe side," I had them ship the replacement copies to a "different" address, and I received the new package within a couple of weeks.

They only thing that sucked was that one of the records was a used copy of Hal's first album that they sadly did not have another copy of, and I am still looking for a copy to this day.

It was the end of a series of "weirdness" of packages from them, as the prior two shipments were extremely mangled and damaged by the time they got to me, and Diverse packages their records like a Sherman Tank.

So that being said, I would sit tight and see if this record shows up in about 3 or 4 months, and you might be pleasantly surprised.

Alternately, if you absolutely want your money back...

If you paid for your record with your credit card, you can still file a claim with the credit card company usually up to 6 months after the transaction was made. Then it is up the the dealer to "prove" that they mailed it to you, and the dealer may also have to prove "you received it."

I had a few "shady deals" in my decades of record collecting, and I always got my money back that way, even when Paypal refused to do anything to help me.

Good luck

[iron666monkey]

I ordered a record a few months ago and opted for the "cheap" shipping option.  Similar situation, guy had high feedback, so I figured I'd save some money and wait a few extra days.  A few extra days turned into a little over 30 days, however the record did finally arrive.  The box he shipped it in was pretty fucked, it had gotten wet, and soaked through and the jacket has some moisture damage.  The box also looked like a mail truck had run over it, several times.  If he hadn't packed it in a heavy box with padding, it would have been demolished.  Fortunately I only spent around $25 and the record was still fine, but it made me realize I that if I'm too cheap to spend extra money on the better shipping option, I shouldn't buy the record.

[Plarocks]

Same EXACT thing that happened to one of the mangled Diverse packages I mentioned in my prior thread...

I was like...What the Hell!?

But that was better than receiving nothing at all like the next one.

[One Hundred Fifty-Two]

Dude sounds like a good seller. However, his disclaimer is hardly binding by discogs or PayPal. If you file a claim you will most likely get your money back.

Side note: can you open an insurance claim of the item never arrives. I'm under the impression that it only protects damaged goods.

[_stretts]

I had a record that was supposed to be sent from the US to AUS go from the US to Venezuela (wtf) then to AUS.

 

Post be fucked mang

 

*edit*

 

Kudos to Venezuelan post for forwarding that record onto me

[dreamover]

Dude sounds like a good seller. However, his disclaimer is hardly binding by discogs or PayPal. If you file a claim you will most likely get your money back.

No one is debating whether or not he can get his money back. It's that it's a shitty thing to do if he was the one who chose to opt for cheap shipping. It sucks, but whenever you opt for shipping without tracking or insurance, you're taking a risk. Otherwise there'd be no reason to choose more expensive shipping. 

 

 

Side note: can you open an insurance claim of the item never arrives. I'm under the impression that it only protects damaged goods.

 

You can't open an insurance claim if it was sent with the equivalent first class shipping. 

[TFP]

No one is debating whether or not he can get his money back. It's that it's a shitty thing to do if he was the one who chose to opt for cheap shipping. It sucks, but whenever you opt for shipping without tracking or insurance, you're taking a risk. Otherwise there'd be no reason to choose more expensive shipping. 

 

 

 

You can't open an insurance claim if it was sent with the equivalent first class shipping. 

 

 

This is why, if I sell an expensive item to overseas, the expensive shipping option is the only option, so I can track and register the record. I don't play around with "options" in shipping. Usually, if the buyer wants the record they will pay the shipping price. I always worry about this sort of thing happening in general. I have been ok so far though. 

[drds89]

Lots of solid advice here.

 

When selling Int'l, if they choose the uninsured option I always take a photo of the receipt from the USPS showing the  Date, Price and Country/'zip'Code destination and send it to the buyer. But as you know this will not suffice if a Paypal claim is filed for whatever reason (lost, damaged, thief), as the burden of proof is on the seller. 

 

When I have bought Int'l the uninsured  route, sellers have NEVER sent me proof of shipping, they must not be able to get a receipt like we do? IDK. 

 

Ironically the only album from Int'l that has failed to show is the Ancients PO, but I did receive a replacement.

 

I would not file PP /CC claim if I believe the seller really did send it, but why they never get a receipt, again, IDK.

[just a normal guy kevin]

It's up to you if you want to view getting your money back as "shitty". It's not a universal opinion though or one backed by PayPal, Discogs, or any business philosophy outside of the 'be cool, bro' code.

You're a customer and the onus is on the seller to make sure the package reaches you safely and incur any costs or risks associated with that. They are making a profit from transactions and any long term seller will have incurred costs that eat from those profits but it's part of doing business.

If a seller doesn't want to wade into this issue, it's their option to choose Insurance to protect themselves. Insurance isn't intended to protect the buyer. Unfortunately, the seller can't make $8 from the transaction and then also want the risk-free perks that one experiences as a buyer when they shop.

That isn't ideal for sellers but it's how shipping policies and culpability is set up by the moderating marketplaces. If following the protocols and guidelines is "shitty" then maybe the best option is to avoid Discogs and PayPal and do transactions via Craig's List and cash so that everyone can be cool and nice about settling these things.