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The Mark Kozelek/Sun Kil Moon/Red House Painters thread


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Ok. Just read Pitchfork’s article. The guy’s clearly a creep. At the same time, what 19 y/o goes to a musician’s hotel room at 1 AM and think ‘he just wants to talk’? RUFKM? I’m not into victim shaming but holy shit. And then she admits to multiple consensual sex encounters afterwards? The fuck is that? Completely fucking ridiculous is what it is.

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37 minutes ago, twatay said:

Ok. Just read Pitchfork’s article. The guy’s clearly a creep. At the same time, what 19 y/o goes to a musician’s hotel room at 1 AM and think ‘he just wants to talk’? RUFKM? I’m not into victim shaming but holy shit. And then she admits to multiple consensual sex encounters afterwards? The fuck is that? Completely fucking ridiculous is what it is.

I'm definitely not into victim shaming! However,

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53 minutes ago, twatay said:

Ok. Just read Pitchfork’s article. The guy’s clearly a creep. At the same time, what 19 y/o goes to a musician’s hotel room at 1 AM and think ‘he just wants to talk’? RUFKM? I’m not into victim shaming but holy shit. And then she admits to multiple consensual sex encounters afterwards? The fuck is that? Completely fucking ridiculous is what it is.

living up to your username i see

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1 hour ago, twatay said:

Ok. Just read Pitchfork’s article. The guy’s clearly a creep. At the same time, what 19 y/o goes to a musician’s hotel room at 1 AM and think ‘he just wants to talk’? RUFKM? I’m not into victim shaming but holy shit. And then she admits to multiple consensual sex encounters afterwards? The fuck is that? Completely fucking ridiculous is what it is.

This has always been a weird concept for me. So, obviously she was raped, and she continues in the relationship. Assuming her narrative is 100% the case, let's say (hypothetically) some other lady was in the same boat but WASN'T raped/ assaulted. She wanted to have sex because it's Mark Kozelek. The carry on that relationship, yadda yadda.

Is he culpable just because she's a fan? 

Total aside: Phoebe Bridgers is obviously a Conor Oberst fan. They also boned. He holds a position of power over her (à la professor/ student). Is Oberst going to be cancelled when Phoebz realizes he was just getting laid from his position or did he really get into their relationship?

I'm genuinely curious takes on this.

Obviously MK raped this girl, but isn't "banging a groupie" kind of fucked up in that same breath?

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8 minutes ago, Fowty Dollaz said:

This has always been a weird concept for me. So, obviously she was raped, and she continues in the relationship. Assuming her narrative is 100% the case, let's say (hypothetically) some other lady was in the same boat but WASN'T raped/ assaulted. She wanted to have sex because it's Mark Kozelek. The carry on that relationship, yadda yadda.

 

 

Is he culpable just because she's a fan? 

 

 

Total aside: Phoebe Bridgers is obviously a Conor Oberst fan. They also boned. He holds a position of power over her (à la professor/ student). Is Oberst going to be cancelled when Phoebz realizes he was just getting laid from his position or did he really get into their relationship?

I'm genuinely curious takes on this.

Obviously MK raped this girl, but isn't "banging a groupie" kind of fucked up in that same breath?

Phoebe and Conor boned? I mean I kinda assumed. But they’re in a band together and seem to be pretty close friends at this point. Working on albums together for a few years. 

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7 minutes ago, Fowty Dollaz said:

This has always been a weird concept for me. So, obviously she was raped, and she continues in the relationship. Assuming her narrative is 100% the case, let's say (hypothetically) some other lady was in the same boat but WASN'T raped/ assaulted. She wanted to have sex because it's Mark Kozelek. The carry on that relationship, yadda yadda.

Is he culpable just because she's a fan? 

Total aside: Phoebe Bridgers is obviously a Conor Oberst fan. They also boned. He holds a position of power over her (à la professor/ student). Is Oberst going to be cancelled when Phoebz realizes he was just getting laid from his position or did he really get into their relationship?

I'm genuinely curious takes on this.

Obviously MK raped this girl, but isn't "banging a groupie" kind of fucked up in that same breath?

Man, there's a lot to unpack here but I am going to keep it short.  "Consent" is a real fucking simple concept and I continue to be floored every time someone pops in to voice their "confusion" on the issue.  Separately, continuing a relationship that started without consent does not retroactively confer consent.  It's no secret that abused individuals stay in abusive relationships for a long time, for a variety of reasons, including the obvious reason that they have yet to appreciate the power dynamic/manipulation keeping them in said relationship.    

 

There is an incredible and surprising amount of victim shaming in this thread now.  

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Yeah, IDK if the Phoebe/Conor relationship is an apples to apples comparison in terms of a power dynamic. 

 

 

In regards to the rest, for me its on a case by case basis. Theres definitely an uneven power dynamic with performers and "groupies", but ultimately, I think it comes down the the actions and behavior of the individual who has more power or influence. 

 

 

 

 

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18 minutes ago, museummouth said:

Phoebe and Conor boned? I mean I kinda assumed. But they’re in a band together and seem to be pretty close friends at this point. Working on albums together for a few years. 

It's been assumed.

 

16 minutes ago, thischarmingman said:

Man, there's a lot to unpack here but I am going to keep it short.  "Consent" is a real fucking simple concept and I continue to be floored every time someone pops in to voice their "confusion" on the issue.  Separately, continuing a relationship that started without consent does not retroactively confer consent.  It's no secret that abused individuals stay in abusive relationships for a long time, for a variety of reasons, including the obvious reason that they have yet to appreciate the power dynamic/manipulation keeping them in said relationship.    

 

There is an incredible and surprising amount of victim shaming in this thread now.  

I totally understand consent. I totally agree that she was raped and in NO WAY think he's not at fault completely regardless of whether or not their consensual and continued  relationship carried on. I'm asking a question about things that happen that mirrors the current situation. Citing it as a real example and using a less abusive, hypothetical scenario to carry out the question where I THINK the person in power is at fault even if s/he genuinely thinks the other "fan/ groupie/ etc" is into the relationship. It's the same concept as a college professor sleeping with a student. I think you misunderstood or meant to quote someone else.

 

19 minutes ago, timsimmons said:

Yeah, IDK if the Phoebe/Conor relationship is an apples to apples comparison in terms of a power dynamic. 

In regards to the rest, for me its on a case by case basis. Theres definitely an uneven power dynamic with performers and "groupies", but ultimately, I think it comes down the the actions and behavior of the individual who has more power or influence.

I agree, but assuming everyone thinks the other is just into the situation and NO ONE is assaulted or raped, isn't the person "in power" kind of still abusive by just their status. If so, how can a person like George Clooney ever have a relationship?  That's kind of what I'm getting at. It's always seemed so unclear. Obviously ole George Clooney can genuinely love another person who loves him, but his status will always hold. 

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6 minutes ago, Fowty Dollaz said:

It's been assumed.

 

I totally understand consent. I totally agree that she was raped and in NO WAY think he's not at fault completely regardless of whether or not their consensual and continued  relationship carried on. I'm asking a question about things that happen that mirrors the current situation. Citing it as a real example and using a less abusive, hypothetical scenario to carry out the question where I THINK the person in power is at fault even if s/he genuinely thinks the other "fan/ groupie/ etc" is into the relationship. It's the same concept as a college professor sleeping with a student. I think you misunderstood or meant to quote someone else.

 

I agree, but assuming everyone thinks the other is just into the situation and NO ONE is assaulted or raped, isn't the person "in power" kind of still abusive by just their status. If so, how can a person like George Clooney ever have a relationship?  That's kind of what I'm getting at. It's always seemed so unclear. Obviously ole George Clooney can genuinely love another person who loves him, but his status will always hold. 

I didn't misquote you.  You're trying to turn every power disparity into rape and, frankly, I don't understand why or the source of your confusion.  George Clooney has a relationship with someone by not raping them....  The power dynamic is not what makes a rape a rape.  Abusing that power dynamic is what makes it rape.  Your hypothetical is flawed and incomplete.  You can't stop at "a power dynamic exists ergo rape."   

 

Again, consent is not all that confusing.  Not sure why the concept is lost on so many men.  

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