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The Mark Kozelek/Sun Kil Moon/Red House Painters thread


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Just now, timsimmons said:

I'm just saying, consent, on its face is black and white (yes/no), but in reality and in execution, like in this instance (or many others in the #metoo era), it can be more complex. Especially if fandom is involved. But thats why I originally answered that every relationship with an uneven balance in power/stature is dependent on the individual involved who has the power and how that person is wielding it.

 

 

I agree completely. Basically my perspective, atm, is: if I held any celebrity/ power status (I don't), I would be terrified of forming new, intimate relationships. Not because I would feel like people were trying to target me falsely or that I would be in any position of power within the relationship itself (I'm a married man- I hold 0 power), but because I would feel as though my position is so novel that it creates an unfair structure to the entirety of the relationship. Especially so if I was meeting someone at one of my shows. Even more so if there was an age gap of substantial space. Not that these relationships cannot work (obviously they can and do), but I would be afraid that their feelings would be skewed or I would be viewed as more than a partner.

 

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That’s fair.  But awareness and concern is what these people getting metoo’d lack. To be a celeb or powerful, should mean you have to be aware of how you conduct yourself, but also to have empathy and look at the situation from outside yourself. Dudes don’t need to fear being accused if they are respectful and don’t capitalize on their power to get what they want. 
 

Like case in point, the age thing. No way a 50 year old dude should even consider a 19yo.  Like no way. And if Koz thought with his head instead of his dick, he wouldn’t have put her in that situation. 

Edited by timsimmons
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'I'm afraid to date or engage with women because they might call me a rapist' remains the dumbest knee-jerk reaction to the increased public scrutiny surrounding how awful men have been to women for centuries.   This is also, of course, the rallying cry of critics of #metoo. 

 

Power disparities are not "novel."  They've existed since the beginning of our time on this planet.  The only thing novel about power disparities in relationships is society's (for the most part) new(ish) refusal to tolerate bad behavior.  If you're worried about being called a rapist, it likely has less to do with whatever position of power you  perceive to hold, and more to do with how you treat women in general.  Your perceived power, of course, should also not be your first stop at self-examination.  That's a copout, i.e., 'this woman must be mad at me because I have more power over her.'  The truth is, you're probably just behaving badly.  Of course, that is not to say that people do not abuse power disparities to sexually assault women, but the central issue is not the power disparity.  Lots of rapists (in fact, probably the majority) are loser nobodies.  

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38 minutes ago, Fowty Dollaz said:

I agree completely. Basically my perspective, atm, is: if I held any celebrity/ power status (I don't), I would be terrified of forming new, intimate relationships. 

14 minutes ago, thischarmingman said:

'I'm afraid to date or engage with women because they might call me a rapist' remains the dumbest knee-jerk reaction to the increased public scrutiny surrounding how awful men have been to women for centuries.   This is also, of course, the rallying cry of critics of #metoo. 

 

Power disparities are not "novel."  They've existed since the beginning of our time on this planet.  The only thing novel about power disparities in relationships is society's (for the most part) new(ish) refusal to tolerate bad behavior.  If you're worried about being called a rapist, it likely has less to do with whatever position of power you  perceive to hold, and more to do with how you treat women in general.  Your perceived power, of course, should also not be your first stop at self-examination.  That's a copout, i.e., 'this woman must be mad at me because I have more power over her.'  The truth is, you're probably just behaving badly.  Of course, that is not to say that people do not abuse power disparities to sexually assault women, but the central issue is not the power disparity.  Lots of rapists (in fact, probably the majority) are loser nobodies.  

 Not that these relationships cannot work (obviously they can and do), but I would be afraid that their feelings would be skewed or I would be viewed as more than a partner.

 

Not sure where you pulled that out of what I said, unless you're speaking in generalities.

I think, you think I'm concerned with being called a rapist or that hypothetical musician is concerned with being called a rapist. 

I'm a lot less concerned with "rape" than I am with the power structure's influence over what we call consent.

I think TimSimmons kind of nailed where my mind was going w/ regard to situational circumstances. 

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49 minutes ago, untiliwakeup said:

Blah blah mark kozelek is a fucking arrogant  creep. It’s not a surprise to anyone that’s been to his shows and has seen him single out females and have long weird conversations with them throughout said shows in between songs. 

I've only read about this, but I would not stick around a concert to watch some singer chat with people. Seems rather infuriating.

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On 8/14/2020 at 2:35 PM, Tommy said:

Healthy debate is lost in 2020, its OK to converse in hypothetical in order to gain greater understanding

Intransigency, resorting to wild hypotheticals and being obtuse are not hallmarks of "healthy debate". Using every opportunity to claim persecution is toxic attention-seeking behaviour, tbh.

Edited by OneThreeOneTwo
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