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The Mark Kozelek/Sun Kil Moon/Red House Painters thread


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How is this OK to say?!?!? Seriously.    If this an attempt to be edgy and contribute to the "hilarity" that the "rape jokes" have become...then go ahead and delete your account(s) and head

Cool! Tell us for a third time!!

I'm definitely not into victim shaming! However,

5 minutes ago, thischarmingman said:

I didn't misquote you.  You're trying to turn every power disparity into rape and, frankly, I don't understand why or the source of your confusion.  George Clooney has a relationship with someone by not raping them....  The power dynamic is not what makes a rape a rape.  Abusing that power dynamic is what makes it rape.  Your hypothetical is flawed and incomplete.  You can't stop at "a power dynamic exists ergo rape."   

 

Again, consent is not all that confusing.  Not sure why the concept is lost on so many men.  

I'm not saying a power dynamic is the same as rape, but let me break it down for you: A person of power (ANY position power) holds a different dynamic than a relationship with a peer. A boss and employee, a teacher and student, a musician and fan, a successful musician and an up and coming musician. 

The fact that a musician sleeps with fans who would otherwise not sleep with them if they weren't musicians illustrates my point. They are using that position to gain sex. 

Now assume that position of gaining sex from in that dynamic blossoms into a relationship. Is that morally wrong? Is it only morally wrong if the person NOT in power decides? I'm not creating an argument. I'm simply asking perspectives on it. 

You putting words in my mouth and calling me a "victim blamer" is a little out of line for someone with a reference to Moz in their handle, but I digress. 

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This is too stupid.  People in disparate power relationships have normal healthy romantic relationships all the time.  And, surprise, sometimes they also just use each other for sex without it being rape.  Why is that such a hard concept for you to grasp?  What's next?  A hypo about how a man and woman could never have a normal relationship because on average men are physically stronger than women?

 

Again, there is nothing "confusing" about any of this.  Let me know if you need a link to a Ted Talk on "consent" because apparently you're having a real difficult time with the concept.   

Edited by thischarmingman
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16 minutes ago, thischarmingman said:

This is too stupid.  People in disparate power relationships have normal healthy romantic relationships all the time.  And, surprise, sometimes they also just use each other for sex without it being rape.  Why is that such a hard concept for you to grasp?  What's next?  A hypo about how a man and woman could never have a normal relationship because on average men are physically stronger than women?

 

Again, there is nothing "confusing" about any of this.  Let me know if you need a link to a Ted Talk on "consent" because apparently you're having a real difficult time with the concept.   

I'll just leave you with this because you refuse to acknowledge the way that you've spoken about what I'm asking in some attempt to undermine me specifically.

YOU are circling the question and not answering it.

Can a person in a lower position of power give consent due to the disparity?

Is it okay for a fan to sleep with a musician? Is it okay for a teacher to sleep with their adult student? Is it okay for a boss to sleep with an employee?

I was just looking for perspectives. It doesn't have to be an attack on me. It can just be an answer. 

 

And to be clear I am a victim, maybe. I don't know. That's kind of part of the reason for the question. I was with a person for 5 years who started sleeping with me when I was 16. She was 23. I was all for it. Technically it probably wasn't illegal in GA at the time, but in hindsight I was always disgusted by the idea of a 23 yo sleeping with a 16 yo. So am I a victim?  Age of consent was (maybe is still) 16 in GA. She was only 23 not 50. We carried on for a long time. It was crappy relationship, but nothing super outside the usual shitty young relationship. 

 

So yes (all those things are probably totally okay and I'm not a victim) or No (those things can't happen because of the power structure and I'm a victim) or it's really kind of a grey area or something else entirely. 

 

Again, I'd like to add that I'd really appreciate you chilling your tone with me. You came out swinging when I was only asking a question on perspective. 

Edited by Fowty Dollaz
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22 minutes ago, Fowty Dollaz said:

 

I'll just leave you with this because you refuse to acknowledge the way that you've spoken about what I'm asking in some attempt to undermine me specifically.

YOU are circling the question and not answering it.

Can a person in a lower position of power give consent due to the disparity?

Is it okay for a fan to sleep with a musician? Is it okay for a teacher to sleep with their adult student? Is it okay for a boss to sleep with an employee?

I was just looking for perspectives. It doesn't have to be an attack on me. It can just be an answer. 

 

And to be clear I am a victim, maybe. I don't know. That's kind of part of the reason for the question. I was with a person for 5 years who started sleeping with me when I was 16. She was 23. I was all for it. Technically it probably wasn't illegal in GA at the time, but in hindsight I was always disgusted by the idea of a 23 yo sleeping with a 16 yo. So am I a victim?  Age of consent was (maybe is still) 16 in GA. She was only 23 not 50. We carried on for a long time. It was crappy relationship, but nothing super outside the usual shitty young relationship. 

 

So yes (all those things are probably totally okay and I'm not a victim) or No (those things can't happen because of the power structure and I'm a victim) or it's really kind of a grey area or something else entirely. 

 

Again, I'd like to add that I'd really appreciate you chilling your tone with me. You came out swinging when I was only asking a question on perspective. 

I'm sorry to hear about your trauma but I've answered your questions multiple times.  The above relationships are all okay provided consent was given.  Again, "THE EXISTENCE OF A POWER DISPARITY DOES NOT CONVERT EVERY RELATIONSHIP INTO A NON-CONSENSUAL ENCOUNTER." 

 

As to whether you're a victim, that's up to you.  If you say you are, I believe you and have no reason to doubt your assessment of the situation.

 

Edit:  I'll add this, it sounds like you might benefit from talking to a professional about your situation, if that's feasible for you.  I vinyl collecting message board is probably not the best place to get the help you might need.

Edited by thischarmingman
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9 minutes ago, thischarmingman said:

"THE EXISTENCE OF A POWER DISPARITY DOES NOT CONVERT EVERY RELATIONSHIP INTO A NON-CONSENSUAL ENCOUNTER." 

This was the simple sort of perspective I was asking for. Thanks for chilling the tone. Much appreciated. 

As for your "this is so stupid why are you asking this" comment. I'm really just trying to gauge how I perceive it and usually input from others can guide my feelings and perspectives (whether they are different or similar). Since something similar to what I'm asking happened it seemed like a relevant time to ask.

 

But hey, fuck me! 

 

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4 minutes ago, Fowty Dollaz said:

This was the simple sort of perspective I was asking for. Thanks for chilling the tone. Much appreciated. 

As for your "this is so stupid why are you asking this" comment. I'm really just trying to gauge how I perceive it and usually input from others can guide my feelings and perspectives (whether they are different or similar). Since something similar to what I'm asking happened it seemed like a relevant time to ask.

 

But hey, fuck me! 

 

I don't know what to tell you.  All caps seemed the only way to get the point across since you missed it in my previous posts. 

 

In any event, get professional help if you can.  It sounds like you've experienced something traumatic.  This is not the place to get answers as to your specific experience.  We spend thousands of dollars on an outdated music medium and debate issues related to the same.  We are perhaps some of the least qualified individuals on the issues you may be having.  We can express sympathy, and that's about it.  I hope you figure out whatever it is you need to figure out and find some answers/closure.

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18 minutes ago, JohnMatrix said:

I would say Phoebe/Ryan Adams is a more relevant comparison than Phoebe/Conor if we want to go there

Well he harassed her and pressured her and that's not what I'm asking. I'm asking if the relationship is consensual but with the weird power dynamic. If DRA had never been a turdbucket and abused her (or anyone else) would be more akin to the concept I'm hypothetically proposing.

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5 minutes ago, Fowty Dollaz said:

Well he harassed her and pressured her and that's not what I'm asking. I'm asking if the relationship is consensual but with the weird power dynamic. If DRA had never been a turdbucket and abused her (or anyone else) would be more akin to the concept I'm hypothetically proposing.

Oh, for fuck's sake...stop.  What you are proposing is not a thing.  People treating each other with dignity and respect, and fucking, is not non-consensual sex just because one has more "power" than the other.

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17 minutes ago, thischarmingman said:

I don't know what to tell you.  All caps seemed the only way to get the point across since you missed it in my previous posts. 

 

Lol. I was actually being serious when I said thanks for chilling the tone, not attacking me. All caps means nothing to me. I got what you were saying eventually, but name calling me along the way is what made me keep responding instead of just "liking" your comment. 

Again, to emphasize, my question is directed at the power dynamic. Not rape. Not assault. You answered it directly and I thank you. 

 

When I asserted that I'm just trying to gauge how I feel, I meant about the celebrity power dynamic, not my own shit. That was just brought up so you'd chill. I think you thought I was agreeing with Twatty initially and I'm sorry if I mislead you by quoting him. 

I don't actually care what he thinks, you think, or my ex thinks about our relationship, though it's similar circumstances (sans celebrity-ness) it's actually kind of irrelevant and I shouldn't have brought it up.

 

6 minutes ago, Tommy said:

Ya'll need to chill out, go take 5 and have yourselves a warm bath

It's so hot out though. 😆

I'm actually very calm. I would be calmer if I didn't quit smoking recently, but still calm. 

 

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3 minutes ago, thischarmingman said:

Oh, for fuck's sake...stop.  What you are proposing is not a thing.  People treating each other with dignity and respect, and fucking, is not non-consensual sex just because one has more "power" than the other.

If this is so troubling to you, maybe YOU should stop. I'm just trying to talk and you seem really worked up over it. You've given your perspective and now you're trying to control mine. Chill.

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I always thought consensual agreement was black or white.  You either have it or you don't... right?  Can someone clarify?  Where and why is there room for vagueness here?  As a victim, wouldn't it behoove Andrea to speak in certainties and set the record straight when writing about what happened?

 

Quote

According to Andrea, he also allegedly initiated sex that she wrote “wasn’t really consensual” in a series of Facebook messages to a friend the next day, which Pitchfork reviewed.

 

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4 minutes ago, Fowty Dollaz said:

If this is so troubling to you, maybe YOU should stop. I'm just trying to talk and you seem really worked up over it. You've given your perspective and now you're trying to control mine. Chill.

It's troubling because taken to its logical conclusion it perpetuates the "man is the real victim when women claim sex was not consensual" argument people like to make, e.g., "if this wasn't consensual then what is?!"  Conceding any sort of ambiguity in consent is problematic.  You need to stop.  If you don't understand what consensual sex is, then figure it out and, until then, stop having sex with people.  The ambiguity you're trying to force into an otherwise unambiguous concept props up a very stupid defense sex offenders often make.

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9 minutes ago, thischarmingman said:

It's troubling because taken to its logical conclusion it perpetuates the "man is the real victim when women claim sex was not consensual" argument people like to make, e.g., "if this wasn't consensual then what is?!"  Conceding any sort of ambiguity in consent is problematic.  You need to stop.  If you don't understand what consensual sex is, then figure it out and, until then, stop having sex with people.  The ambiguity you're trying to force into an otherwise unambiguous concept props up a very stupid defense sex offenders often make.

Sorry, not my intent. I'm not trying to lead anyone to anything. Again, shaping perspective on hypothetical circumstances that do occur.

Also, again, I'd appreciate it if you stop getting so... negative and hostile with me and stop trying to tell me what to do.

Finally:

Please, for the love of God, don't ever become any kind of teacher. I beg of you. You don't seem to have the patience. 

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2 minutes ago, Tommy said:

The irony in this debate,  Fowty is kindly asking to chill and have a conversation and all Charmingman wants to do is push the twin beds together and force his opinion into Fowtys asscheeks

Honestly, I'm not even DEBATING, I'm just shaping circumstances and asking for perspectives. I guess learning and growing based on other individuals' experiences and perspectives makes me a victim blamer. 🤷 

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23 minutes ago, Derek™ said:

I always thought consensual agreement was black or white.  You either have it or you don't... right?  Can someone clarify?  Where and why is there room for vagueness here?  As a victim, wouldn't it behoove Andrea to speak in certainties and set the record straight when writing about what happened?

 

 

That "wasn't really consensual" quote was something she messaged to her friend the day after it happened when she was undoubtedly just beginning to process it. She's speaking in certainties now.

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Theres a big difference between a whole hearted "Yes" and and a half hearted "Sure". Both are affirmative answers, but they are light years apart in intention. Thats where the power dynamic can change things. 

 

 

 

 

Edited by timsimmons
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7 minutes ago, Tommy said:

Healthy debate is lost in 2020, its OK to converse in hypothetical in order to gain greater understanding

I mean it's not like those types of relationships don't exist, but I got 2 answers and both are different, so it shows that different perspectives on the subject exist. 

It's alright though, I can see it's touchy. Wasn't trying to stir drama (to be clear in the future: I NEVER am trying to create drama. This is usually the LEAST dramatic realm of my day).

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2 minutes ago, timsimmons said:

Theres a big difference between a whole hearted Yes and and a half hearted Sure. Both are affirmative answers, but they are light years apart in intention. Thats where the power dynamic can change things. 

 

 

 

 

Be careful Tim. You bout ta get LIT UP. 😆

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I'm just saying, consent, on its face is black and white (yes/no), but in reality and in execution, like in this instance (or many others in the #metoo era), it can be more complex. Especially if fandom is involved. But thats why I originally answered that every relationship with an uneven balance in power/stature is dependent on the individual involved who has the power and if that person is aware of it and being responsible with it.

 

 

Edited by timsimmons
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