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There Will Be Hell Toupée! (The Donald Trump Thread)


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I think there's a big difference between determining in the near future that the US has taken in enough refugees, and determining as some people are mid-flight that they cannot enter the US. You're right that the US isn't the only one taking refugees, nor should they be. It's mostly the way it was gone about that is particularly troubling.

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30 minutes ago, Sidney Crosley said:

I think there's a big difference between determining in the near future that the US has taken in enough refugees, and determining as some people are mid-flight that they cannot enter the US. You're right that the US isn't the only one taking refugees, nor should they be. It's mostly the way it was gone about that is particularly troubling.

That mid-flight thing has been declared unconstitutional and is being resolved. That's why we have checks and balances in the US gov't.

Edited by The Ghost of Randy Savage
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Wall of text incoming:

 

 

 

I was thinking about this a little bit earlier and I want to try to distill the refugee thing down into a microcosm for those who still might not understand why a perfectly reasonable citizen wouldn't want unchecked open immigration here in the US and specifically for refugees.

 

I'm going to assume that all of you have a place to live and that you aren't taking up 100% of that space at all times bodily. Pretty reasonable assumptions to make since we're on the Internet, and you aren't likely to be 1000 lbs.

 

Ok. 

 

Imagine that you're at home, maybe surfing VC and you hear a knock at the door. You answer the door and standing in front of you is a homeless person. You can imagine any homeless person you want. Race, gender, religion, etc. doesn't matter.

They're a little bit dirty; you can tell they've been on the street for a while and it hasn't treated them kindly.

This person says to you, "Hi, I'm ______ and I live down the street under the bridge."/in a tent/wherever your homeless population who won't go to a shelter lives. "I notice you live in this really nice place and have some extra space. How about letting me crash on your couch/in your extra room for a while."

Now keep in mind that this person isn't going to tell you anything else about themself, and that even if they did they could be lying. Who knows if the name they gave you is even truthful?

Are you taking them in? I'd imagine that for 99% of us the answer would be..."Fuck no!"

This person also makes it clear that for at least the first few YEARS that they'll be staying with you they will use your electricity, gas, water, and space, but will not be paying rent/contributing money in any way.

Now let's imagine (for some of us a reality) that you're already in debt. Student loans, credit card, etc. you owe tens of thousands of dollars and you're already essentially living check to check. Even if it turns out that this person was perfectly nice and considerate, followed rules laid down (though this is not a guarantee); if you did take this person in, would that put you in a place that you were even more burdened?

 

Now scale that x1,000,000.

 

Can you see why people, even accepting, empathetic people who hate to see suffering may support not bringing in more refugees?

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It's not quite like that though. I appreciate your perspective.

 

I know people who have been involved in groups sponsoring refugees. Basically the expectation is that the group help find the refugee family room and board for a year, plus supporting them in other ways (morally, sometimes helping find jobs, enrol in school, etc.).  Sponsoring refugees isn't cheap - it's about $20,000 for the year.  For many, this cost is absurd and deters them. For others, no amount of money is too much to ensure that people who have lost everything have a new start. It is nothing like the random person arriving on your doorstep. As someone who is extremely empathetic to refugees, especially given the story I shared earlier, even I probably would not let a random stranger show up on my door and expect to live with me.  Even if they were carefully vetted before arriving. But that's not how refugee sponsorship works, unless you are being responsible for a family member, in which case your description as above is valid, except for a cousin.

 

I have been able to meet and speak with recent refugees from Syria, including one amazing 17 year old who had enrolled in one of my schools (I'm a special education consultant) about his past. He worked with the drama club and helped them devise a piece about coming to Canada (where most of the school was not Canada-born, though very few were recent refugees) [sidenote: while I would usually think a devised piece of theatre made by teenagers would be terrible, it was really quite fascinating and moving]. Many refugees truly cannot believe their fortunes when they are able to come to a country where they do not fear persecution, or no longer need to live in a refugee camp somewhere in between their home country and the rest of the world, not sure if they have any future ahead of them. 

 

If you aren't interested in sponsoring a refugee, don't. I don't blame you. It's a lot to ask. I'm pretty sure 99.99% of people aren't interested. But the 0.01% who are, who feel that it is their duty to support those less fortunate. And there is a shit-ton of paperwork and time spent putting everything together to get a family to come over. And let's say this ban is overridden for now, but lawmakers find a different way to stop families from coming two months from now. Those families likely have been through the process for 6 months. And sure, there are other countries who might accept them. But that could mean another year or two living in a camp. And while it may not be death, it's a pretty shitty way to live, especially not being sure what your next step will be.

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2 hours ago, The Ghost of Randy Savage said:

I guess my question here is, so these refugees can't come to the US...why do you all assume the only option is for them to go back to their deaths in their own country? Are you saying that no other country will allow them in either? Why, the leaders of those countries must be bigots too then, right?

 

 

Exactly. It seems most people in this thread think we should be supporting the entire world, like it solely falls on our shoulders.

There's many many other countries to go to on the map. 

 

 

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13 minutes ago, vinyl addict said:

Exactly. It seems most people in this thread think we should be supporting the entire world, like it solely falls on our shoulders.

There's many many other countries to go to on the map. 

 

 

 
 

There are already vetting processes in place that take quite a while. This executive order was not putting a bandage on an emergency open wound. If there was an area of that process that needed to be improved and if reform was a legitimate concern, it should have been addressed clearly and specifically. Instead, a list of countries was chosen based on their religion and not history of incidents amongst its refugees while countries that do have a history of incidents with its refugees were not included on the list (and there is an overlap there between the list of countries that our president has business relationships with). In my opinion, the executive order, in practice, re-enforced pre-existing prejudices about muslims and added fuel to the disinformation frenzy rather than addressing any tangible issues. There are legitimate questions and concerns about immigration and the executive order didn't address them other than to pose an oversimplified binary of SECURING AMERICA / LETTING REFUGEES RUN AMOK, which is inaccurate and not based in any reality. 

Edited by richardsurf
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2 hours ago, The Ghost of Randy Savage said:

We've already taken a large number of refugees in (as we always do). Maybe we've hit our limit. There are other countries all over the world.

Just because someone doesn't want us to take in refugees doesn't make anyone a racist.

This order is not limited to refugees! And as you can see, I have not used the word "refugee" anywhere in my posts. 

 

It's banning all people from these countries or originating from these countries!

 

Even people who were born somewhere else and who e.g have two citizenships (like me)!? Even people who are US-Citizens with another citizenship?! 

 

You can say what you want and think what you want...but you will never legitimate such bans/orders  rationally since it's the quintessence of racism and stupidity!

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2 hours ago, The Ghost of Randy Savage said:

We've already taken a large number of refugees in (as we always do). Maybe we've hit our limit. There are other countries all over the world.

Just because someone doesn't want us to take in refugees doesn't make anyone a racist.

A large number? Don't kid yourself. Out of approx. 5 million Syrian refugees the US have taken a 10.000 cherry-picked ons. Germany for example has taken an estimated 300.000 and the countries around Syria obviously many, many more. 

 

But that's not the point at all. How many refugees to take or not is obviously a very important thing to discuss.  But that is not what Trump did and nothing he will do.

He simply signed an order to ban the entry into the US from 7 randomly chosen countries, without any reason whatsoever. There is no immigration to the US by people just flying into JFK or LAX and wandering out of there unnoticed by the authorities. No one touches American soil on an airport without being vetted pre-flight. 

And that's why pretty much EVERYONE who has been affected  and turned away on the border (or detained, interrogated) due to Trumps order has been mistreated  in spite of possessing valid, legal paperwork to enter the US, i.e. visa, green card etc. That's not just a tiny glitch, that's  an incomprehensible amount of malevolence and incompetence.

 

Edited by DCF
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2 hours ago, The Ghost of Randy Savage said:

You're confused. Removing people already ok'ed and who are here from the airport etc. has been declared unconstitutional, not the ban itself.

I'm not confused, that is exactly what I said. The question whether the ban is unconstitutional has not yet been decided, but it is clear that the implementation that Trump and his "advisors" like Steve "Reichbart" Bannon have drawn up is illegal.

Here's a fun read for Trump fans:

https://lawfareblog.com/malevolence-tempered-incompetence-trumps-horrifying-executive-order-refugees-and-visas

 

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47 minutes ago, Sidney Crosley said:

It's not quite like that though. I appreciate your perspective.

 

I know people who have been involved in groups sponsoring refugees. Basically the expectation is that the group help find the refugee family room and board for a year, plus supporting them in other ways (morally, sometimes helping find jobs, enrol in school, etc.).  Sponsoring refugees isn't cheap - it's about $20,000 for the year.  For many, this cost is absurd and deters them. For others, no amount of money is too much to ensure that people who have lost everything have a new start. It is nothing like the random person arriving on your doorstep. As someone who is extremely empathetic to refugees, especially given the story I shared earlier, even I probably would not let a random stranger show up on my door and expect to live with me.  Even if they were carefully vetted before arriving. But that's not how refugee sponsorship works, unless you are being responsible for a family member, in which case your description as above is valid, except for a cousin.

 

I have been able to meet and speak with recent refugees from Syria, including one amazing 17 year old who had enrolled in one of my schools (I'm a special education consultant) about his past. He worked with the drama club and helped them devise a piece about coming to Canada (where most of the school was not Canada-born, though very few were recent refugees) [sidenote: while I would usually think a devised piece of theatre made by teenagers would be terrible, it was really quite fascinating and moving]. Many refugees truly cannot believe their fortunes when they are able to come to a country where they do not fear persecution, or no longer need to live in a refugee camp somewhere in between their home country and the rest of the world, not sure if they have any future ahead of them. 

 

If you aren't interested in sponsoring a refugee, don't. I don't blame you. It's a lot to ask. I'm pretty sure 99.99% of people aren't interested. But the 0.01% who are, who feel that it is their duty to support those less fortunate. And there is a shit-ton of paperwork and time spent putting everything together to get a family to come over. And let's say this ban is overridden for now, but lawmakers find a different way to stop families from coming two months from now. Those families likely have been through the process for 6 months. And sure, there are other countries who might accept them. But that could mean another year or two living in a camp. And while it may not be death, it's a pretty shitty way to live, especially not being sure what your next step will be.

The comparison is between you(in the scenario) and the entire country, not you and a family accepting another person into their home. The country foots a large bill when you bring in refugees.

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15 minutes ago, DCF said:

I'm not confused, that is exactly what I said. The question whether the ban is unconstitutional has not yet been decided, but it is clear that the implementation that Trump and his "advisors" like Steve "Reichbart" Bannon have drawn up is illegal.

Here's a fun read for Trump fans:

https://lawfareblog.com/malevolence-tempered-incompetence-trumps-horrifying-executive-order-refugees-and-visas

 

Just to be clarify also, I'm personally not a fan of Trump.

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it's ridiculous that no one is addressing the elephant in the room. it was the US government and probably other powers that funded rebel groups (like ISIS, al qaeda, al nusra, etc.) in order to overthrow the assad regime for their own geopolitical interests. the best solution from the beginning was simply to not fund terrorists in an extremely unstable part of the world. is everyone here unfamiliar with the history of the CIA? people wouldn't be fleeing syria seeking refuge and asylum if not for the fact that they are pawns caught up in a much larger, more malevolent game that is being played by very powerful people.

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27 minutes ago, Satan said:

The whole house is floating the idea of demanding immigrants to turn over their social media and cell phone contacts or be denied access to the US.

That just sounds like a really dumb idea. Why would someone volunteer that info? They can demand all they want, but how can they even know without investigating every person.

Even then, Homeland Security/CIA etc can be pretty daft. One of the Marathon Bombers was on the watch list, but they had no idea because they had his name SPELLED WRONG IN THE DATABASE. 

 

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25 minutes ago, vinyl addict said:

That just sounds like a really dumb idea. Why would someone volunteer that info? They can demand all they want, but how can they even know without investigating every person.

Even then, Homeland Security/CIA etc can be pretty daft. One of the Marathon Bombers was on the watch list, but they had no idea because they had his name SPELLED WRONG IN THE DATABASE. 

 

Speaking of the name spelling, the British press was denied access to the White House  because of the format of their birthdates. 

 

THERES SO MUCH WRONG HAPPENING. It really can't be because of ignorance. 

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On 1/28/2017 at 8:31 AM, vinyl addict said:

It seems as though you think your opinion is the final word on every subject.

Maybe he thinks you are a "piece of shit monster". After all, you feel killing babies is OK, right?

It's easy for some angry old asshole to spew hatred when he (most likely) lives in a white neighborhood and really just dislikes his life and the brown people. Come to Indiana, where Pence has already shoved his beliefs down our throats to the point where every planned parenthood has closed. Do you understand exactly how dangerous that is? No, you don't. Because you're a white man with a college education. I don't even know why you bother with this place at all. Besides the Pink Floyd thread, where you can tell is exactly how many grooves are on each side of each pressing, this place has nearly

nothing to interest you. I mean, a 17 year old from Arizona knows more about politics and the effects of immigration (ya know, because he lives in a state that's actually close to Mexico), so you should kindly fuck off. 

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8 minutes ago, throughbeingcruel said:

It's easy for some angry old asshole to spew hatred when he (most likely) lives in a white neighborhood and really just dislikes his life and the brown people. Come to Indiana, where Pence has already shoved his beliefs down our throats to the point where every planned parenthood has closed. Do you understand exactly how dangerous that is? No, you don't. Because you're a white man with a college education. I don't even know why you bother with this place at all. Besides the Pink Floyd thread, where you can tell is exactly how many grooves are on each side of each pressing, this place has nearly

nothing to interest you. I mean, a 17 year old from Arizona knows more about politics and the effects of immigration (ya know, because he lives in a state that's actually close to Mexico), so you should kindly fuck off. 

Didn't you guys have a massive HIV outbreak as a direct result of that piece of shit nixing sex education for abstinence only bullshit and then cutting a shitload of funds from Planned Parenthood?

 

Because seriously...if you're actually trying to prevent abortion (Pence isn't, he wants to control women's bodies. Trying to outlaw abortion doesn't prevent it, just makes it harder, more expensive, and waaaaay less safe) the way to do that is through education and access to birth control and reproductive healthcare.

 

 

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7 minutes ago, Bladewillisisdead said:

Didn't you guys have a massive HIV outbreak as a direct result of that piece of shit nixing sex education for abstinence only bullshit and then cutting a shitload of funds from Planned Parenthood?

 

Because seriously...if you're actually trying to prevent abortion (Pence isn't, he wants to control women's bodies. Trying to outlaw abortion doesn't prevent it, just makes it harder, more expensive, and waaaaay less safe) the way to do that is through education and access to birth control and reproductive healthcare.

 

 

Yep, I believe it was Scott County. They had a massive HIV outbreak, a lot of counties have. We also have gnarly heroin and meth epidemics, entire counties have been overrun by that, including the one I live in. I straddle the county line so I can conveniently go to the next county for literally everything since I work there. Indiana is pretty fucked right now, thanks to our new Vice President. 

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58 minutes ago, throughbeingcruel said:

It's easy for some angry old asshole to spew hatred when he (most likely) lives in a white neighborhood and really just dislikes his life and the brown people. Come to Indiana, where Pence has already shoved his beliefs down our throats to the point where every planned parenthood has closed. Do you understand exactly how dangerous that is? No, you don't. Because you're a white man with a college education. I don't even know why you bother with this place at all. Besides the Pink Floyd thread, where you can tell is exactly how many grooves are on each side of each pressing, this place has nearly

nothing to interest you. I mean, a 17 year old from Arizona knows more about politics and the effects of immigration (ya know, because he lives in a state that's actually close to Mexico), so you should kindly fuck off. 

 

 

Kid you are the dumbest I've seen on here. Don't you ever give up.

You know NOTHING about me. NOTHING. You take jabs at me because I have more interest in the sound quality of an album, than some color variant. Excuse me for having an interest in music, not pretty colors. 

 

As far as me being white, and living in a white neighborhood goes....LOL

 Have we met?

I'm supposed to be clueless because I have a college education?

 

What does someone's location have to do with their knowledge of immigration. I must have missed that somewhere. Having a difference of opinion does not make anyone less educated either.

I don't know why I even bother with you.  I doubt you personally will ever get a reply from me again. A complete waste of my time, everytime.

 

 

 

Edited by vinyl addict
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I've been staying away from this thread and just catching up with the last few pages reminds me why.  So I'm gonna go back out, but wanted to leave this.

https://medium.com/@yonatanzunger/trial-balloon-for-a-coup-e024990891d5#.lrnkgd22a

I hope at least some of you read this.  There is some scary shit going on behind the scenes.

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16 minutes ago, vinyl addict said:

What does someone's location have to do with their knowledge of immigration. 

 

I don't mean to imply that people who don't live near the border are clueless, but @Holo does occasionally mention to me the effects it has on his community (in AZ)

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6 minutes ago, DOMAN127 said:

I don't mean to imply that people who don't live near the border are clueless, but @Holo does occasionally mention to me the effects it has on his community (in AZ)

So if I'm not online publicly reporting to some kid on a vinyl forum, it's not a factor for my area? 

You guys are funny. Someday many if you will grow into adulthood and open your eyes/ears.  As far as the adults that are on here, I do respect your opinion , I really do. Yet, we are all entitled to our own. 

"YOURS" (whomever is reading this) is not necessarily any more correct than mine.

 

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