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There Will Be Hell Toupée! (The Donald Trump Thread)


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35 minutes ago, WAXXX said:

you're talking out your ass. there are so many businesses currently providing (and able to provide) data backup for law enforcement that your point isn't even an issue. furthermore, the utah datacenter (used by the NSA) is single-handedly capable of storing between 3-12 exabytes of data in the near term alone. 1 exabyte is equal to 1 billion gigabytes. it has been said that 5 exabytes would be equal to all of the words ever spoken by mankind. 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utah_Data_Center

Interesting. Perhaps I was given some poor information regarding the storage of body camera footage.

 

But still, you have to listen to all of it for it to be useful, which is impossible.

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8 minutes ago, Battra said:

Interesting. Perhaps I was given some poor information regarding the storage of body camera footage.

 

But still, you have to listen to all of it for it to be useful, which is impossible.

100% inaccurate.

There are computer logarithms that can pull out key words or phrases and rank things in terms of risk. Hell, my voicemails at work get transcribed and sent to my email to save me time. What year do you think we live in?

Clearly no one is listening to every single person's conversation. That doesn't mean they aren't collecting them and that they can't go back and pull something whenever they want.

Edited by The Ghost of Randy Savage
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43 minutes ago, WAXXX said:

you're talking out your ass. there are so many businesses currently providing (and able to provide) data backup for law enforcement that your point isn't even an issue. furthermore, the utah datacenter (used by the NSA) is single-handedly capable of storing between 3-12 exabytes of data in the near term alone. 1 exabyte is equal to 1 billion gigabytes. it has been said that 5 exabytes would be equal to all of the words ever spoken by mankind. 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utah_Data_Center

Interesting. Perhaps I was given some poor information regarding the storage of body camera footage.

 

But still, you have to listen to all of it for it to be useful, which is impossible

2 minutes ago, The Ghost of Randy Savage said:

100% inaccurate.

There are computer logarithms that can pull out key words or phrases and rank things in terms of risk. Hell, my voicemails at work get transcribed and sent to my email to save me time. What year do you think we live in?

Clearly no one is listening to every single person's conversation. That doesn't mean they aren't collecting them and that they can't go back and pull something whenever they want.

Oh thank god!

 

You see, I was, apparently incorrectly, thinking that terrorists had moved up to using codes like Henry Hill did.

 

MAZZEI: You know the golf club and the dogs you gave me in return?

           HILL:   Yeah.

           MAZZEI: Can you still do that?     

           HILL:   Same kind of golf club?

           MAZZEI: No.  No golf clubs.  Can you still give me the dogs if 
                   I pay for the golf clubs? 

           HILL:   Yeah.  Sure.

                           (portion of conversation omitted)

           MAZZEI: You front me the shampoo and I'll front you the dog pills...
                   What time tomorrow?

           HILL:   Anytime after twelve.

           MAZZEI: You won't hold my lady friend up?

           HILL:   No.

           MAZZEI: Somebody will just exchange dogs.

That's a load off of my mind, man!

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2 minutes ago, Battra said:

Interesting. Perhaps I was given some poor information regarding the storage of body camera footage.

 

But still, you have to listen to all of it for it to be useful, which is impossible

Oh thank god!

 

You see, I was, apparently incorrectly, thinking that terrorists had moved up to using codes like Henry Hill did.

 

MAZZEI: You know the golf club and the dogs you gave me in return?

           HILL:   Yeah.

           MAZZEI: Can you still do that?     

           HILL:   Same kind of golf club?

           MAZZEI: No.  No golf clubs.  Can you still give me the dogs if 
                   I pay for the golf clubs? 

           HILL:   Yeah.  Sure.

                           (portion of conversation omitted)

           MAZZEI: You front me the shampoo and I'll front you the dog pills...
                   What time tomorrow?

           HILL:   Anytime after twelve.

           MAZZEI: You won't hold my lady friend up?

           HILL:   No.

           MAZZEI: Somebody will just exchange dogs.

That's a load off of my mind, man!

If you think there are no key phrases that would trigger that to be looked at, you're insane. 

 

"Front me," and repetition of the same words so many times would bring immediate suspicion at this point I'd imagine. BUT, I guess my main point is:

I don't understand how you don't get that the gov't could very well be collecting information, but not necessarily looking at all of it even if they didn't have the logarithms they have.

They're not going to catch every little thing obviously due to examples like you've pointed out, but that doesn't mean they aren't still collecting it, scanning for the easy stuff, and then randomly, or pointedly monitoring select people anyway. You seem to be under the impression that in order to collect this info they have to listen to it all, which is just a fallacy.

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I'm not sure you know what fallacy means, so I'd suggest not using it.

 

As for my point, collection of information is only useful if it's analyzed.

 

If they can't analyze even a quarter of it, then it's not  useful. Then you have the idea that government is collecting all of this unuseful data.

 

Then what's the point? So, I ask you, if they have all of this data that they can't really put to use, what's the point in doing it?

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2 minutes ago, Battra said:

I'm not sure you know what fallacy means, so I'd suggest not using it.

 

As for my point, collection of information is only useful if it's analyzed.

 

If they can't analyze even a quarter of it, then it's not  useful. Then you have the idea that government is collecting all of this unuseful data.

 

Then what's the point? So, I ask you, if they have all of this data that they can't really put to use, what's the point in doing it?

You mean fallacy - a mistaken belief, especially one based on an unsound argument? Sounds about right to me. Maybe get a dictionary.

 

Oh, so you mean they shouldn't analyze as much as they can in hopes of finding something? (I agree, but I imagine that is their argument for collecting it.)

 

The point of collecting in their minds I'd imagine goes something like this: say a terrorist attack happens. They know who did it and go back into their recorded conversations and try to see if there is anything else planned.

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2 minutes ago, The Ghost of Randy Savage said:

You mean fallacy - a mistaken belief, especially one based on an unsound argument? Sounds about right to me. Maybe get a dictionary.

 

Oh, so you mean they shouldn't analyze as much as they can in hopes of finding something? (I agree, but I imagine that is their argument for collecting it.)

 

The point of collecting in their minds I'd imagine goes something like this: say a terrorist attack happens. They know who did it and go back into their recorded conversations and try to see if there is anything else planned.

Being as you ascribed the thought process to me, I'd suggest you consider your usage. :) You don't need to infer from my statements.

 

That's actually a reasonable hypothesis, but seems unlikely.

 

Besides, we're talking fruit of the poison tree here. You know that right?

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4 minutes ago, Battra said:

Being as you ascribed the thought process to me, I'd suggest you consider your usage. :) You don't need to infer from my statements.

 

That's actually a reasonable hypothesis, but seems unlikely.

 

Besides, we're talking fruit of the poison tree here. You know that right?

I absolutely understand that (fruit of the poison tree) but we all know that doesn't matter to the gov't in any real sense when it comes to terrorism. 

 

As as far as misusing  fallacy, I still think you're misreading my statement, but that's ok. I know what a fallacy is.

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9 minutes ago, The Ghost of Randy Savage said:

I absolutely understand that (fruit of the poison tree) but we all know that doesn't matter to the gov't in any real sense when it comes to terrorism. 

 

As as far as misusing  fallacy, I still think you're misreading my statement, but that's ok. I know what a fallacy is.

See, we've never had a coordinated second attack from terrorists.

 

Not from the Islamic terrorists and not from the Christian Terrorists. It's always been a one and done.

 

So, the coordinated attacks come from overseas.  I'm misreading your statement? You said it seems you're believing this and that's a fallacy! That's a precise ascription to what I said and then a response to your ascription.

 

So, you got any proof that every conversation is being monitored or are you just being contrarian? 

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18 minutes ago, Battra said:

See, we've never had a coordinated second attack from terrorists.

 

Not from the Islamic terrorists and not from the Christian Terrorists. It's always been a one and done.

 

So, the coordinated attacks come from overseas.  I'm misreading your statement? You said it seems you're believing this and that's a fallacy! That's a precise ascription to what I said and then a response to your ascription.

 

So, you got any proof that every conversation is being monitored or are you just being contrarian? 

I've said multiple times that not every conversation is being "monitored." Recorded maybe, but not necessarily monitored.

I'm not trying to being contrarian, just trying to explain that all conversations could be recorded without having to have someone listening to every one of them. Your first argument was that for recordings to be at all useful, someone would have to listen to all of them, which is untrue.

 

I've already spent too much time on this as it is, seeing as I have other things to do. Thankfully, my

main appointment today is running late. All I'm saying is this:

Is it possible all conversations via phone are recorded? Yes.

Is there someone listening to every one of them? No.

Could the gov't find a small amount of these conversations useful without having people devote millions of hours to listening to everyone all the time? Yes.

Do I think they should be doing this? Fuck no.

 

Thats it.

Edited by The Ghost of Randy Savage
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1 hour ago, The Ghost of Randy Savage said:

I've said multiple times that not every conversation is being "monitored." Recorded maybe, but not necessarily monitored.

I'm not trying to being contrarian, just trying to explain that all conversations could be recorded without having to have someone listening to every one of them. Your first argument was that for recordings to be at all useful, someone would have to listen to all of them, which is untrue.

 

I've already spent too much time on this as it is, seeing as I have other things to do. Thankfully, my

main appointment today is running late. All I'm saying is this:

Is it possible all conversations via phone are recorded? Yes.

Is there someone listening to every one of them? No.

Could the gov't find a small amount of these conversations useful without having people devote millions of hours to listening to everyone all the time? Yes.

Do I think they should be doing this? Fuck no.

 

Thats it.

Well, dunno if it wasn't in our posts back and forth or whether or not I missed it, but in the back and forth captain conspiracy, it was all about everybody being monitored at all times.

 

So that's my mindset there.

 

Good luck with your appointment, hopefully it went better than my discussions with my healthcare provider.

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6 hours ago, Shitty Rambo said:

Nope. Don't want anything from anybody I don't earn myself ;)

 

The fact that your don't hold the state accountable for prior major fuck ups is very off-putting. You're acting as if the US hasn't killed people are invaded other countries on a whim (remember all those WMDs in the middle east? How about Obama bombing weddings based on meta data?) 

 

Let's see how this NSA stuff unfolds, chances are it will fall short like every other attempt to discredit Donald Trump. Maybe your guy's wish will come true and the state will murder another person you don't like.

I agree with this very much, there is a huge secret infrastructure behind us now, snooping and spying and looking for footholds. Presidents do terrible, terrible, irredeemable things, it's part of the job. The problem is we have now elected an objectively bad man into the office that controls, or at least has access to this apparatus. That is a problem, and the fact that he may have ben helped by a foreign government, even more overtly anti-liberty than ours is also a problem. This isn't a partisan issue, or at least it shouldn't be. If you're paying attention, it should be extremely difficult to defend this guy. If you just enjoy watching the world burn and people suffer, then so be it, but at least admit that's why you like him. 

 

Obama did some shitty horrible things. Trump is accelerating the pace of those shitty horrible things, including drone strikes and indiscriminate bombing.

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6 hours ago, Shitty Rambo said:

 

Quit trying to misrepresent my counterpoint or act like those examples are wildly irrelevant.. How about if this isn't a slam dunk decimation of the Trump presidency you donate that $25 to a charity of my choosing and if it is I'll do the same?

Those are wildly irrelevant. I'm talking about a President accusing his predecessor of personally ordering wiretaps of a candidate. You brought up a bunch of other shit. 

I don't think we're going to agree here. I'm out.

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3 hours ago, Shitty Rambo said:

 

Hey, least you didn't tell me to "go fuck myself" or "fuck off" like most leftists do when they back out of an argument they can't win. Kudos :)

For the sake of moving the conversation forward, I'd like to say that calling the democrat party "leftist" seems a bit ingenuous.  I have a hard time believing much of the party is that far left.  I hate continuing to bring up the election because it's long dead, but Hillary was way centrist.  Same as Obama. It's been a very long time since we've had a hard leftist in the presidency.  FDR being the last one I can think of, and maybe Kennedy to a much lesser extent.

 

It may be semantics but I think it's important for ongoing debates.  Far left is communism and Castro, far right is libertarianism and the Tea Party.  The left has never had nearly as much power in this country as the right.

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27 minutes ago, nancy_raygun said:

For the sake of moving the conversation forward, I'd like to say that calling the democrat party "leftist" seems a bit ingenuous.  I have a hard time believing much of the party is that far left.  I hate continuing to bring up the election because it's long dead, but Hillary was way centrist.  Same as Obama. It's been a very long time since we've had a hard leftist in the presidency.  FDR being the last one I can think of, and maybe Kennedy to a much lesser extent.

 

It may be semantics but I think it's important for ongoing debates.  Far left is communism and Castro, far right is libertarianism and the Tea Party.  The left has never had nearly as much power in this country as the right.

Read your first two sentences and gonna stop ya right there with a good ol' fashioned:

 

445578_242275324_product_800x.png?v=1480

 

Not trying to be a dick. Collectivism is bullshit (ironic to say on a message board called Vinyl Collective, I know) in general. You're free to associate with whoever the hell you please, but making an arguemnt that I use 'labels' in a way you deem acceptable is a waste of your time, trust me.

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Rambo, these last two posts are pretty fucking arrogant, which is a shame because you seem to at least be thoughtful. I haven't followed the entire back and forth and, as I said, I tend to believe that there is information gathering taking place on a large scale but that doesn't change a number of things:

- This infrastructure exists regardless of who the president is and it is now in the hands of a man who shouldn't be trusted with it.

- No one has been able to prove that Obama ordered that Trump be surveilled. He definitely seems to have been caught up in the gears of surveilling others (there is a ton of smoke with this Russia stuff), but that is markedly different than what Trump claimed.

- I, along with most of my IRL friends, tend to believe that Snowden is a patriot, who deserve far better treatment than what he has received. I was very happy when Obama commuted the sentence for Chelsea Manning, a move that was met with a lot of partisan bluster from the right.

- I think it is naive to think that Rs are the last bastion of liberty in this country. They set most of this apparatus in motion (Patriot Act) and are the ones most vehemently attacking anyone they find threatening their power structure. Both of the parties treat leaks opportunistically but the reaction from Trump to the leaks taking place now and his history of commenting on Snowden is pretty scary.

 

If evidence comes out about point two then great, let's re-evaluate, otherwise being ir-retractable is different from winning arguments against snowflake "leftists". I can argue the sky is green until people give up too, doesn't mean I'm right.

 

Sorry, if I missed some nuance of your argument but your last two posts were entering into WAXX territory, which is probably beneath you.

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Where is this sure-fire Russian evidence against Trump though? Does it matter that the Clintons and their chief of staff creep Podesta has ties to Russia that are proven?  For the creep Podesta I suggest seeing just how many ventures he is tied in with that are explored in Abby Martin's "The Empire Files" on John Podesta. 

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*Jesus this interface sucks on mobile!*

 

Let's back track a bit here, especially before we delve too deep into making character assessments of people we've never talked to before...

 

I may have misunderstood the argument  @jesse and @Carly Rae Jepsen and trying to make. Are you guys under the impression that me or another user here can prove, with out the shadow of a doubt, that the Obama administration spied on Donald Trump? Haha. I said it's likely, of course I don't absolutely know for sure and either way the truth wouldn't change the disdain I have for both of them. 

 

If leaning hard into being independent and not trusting either the left or the right makes me arrogant then fuck it. I'm not looking to have anyone agree with me or think the same way I do, and I'm not interested in making other people's problems my problems (unless it's VC community related of course ;). Always down to voluntarily help or hear an argument that's backed with intellectual ideas, not going to read 5 paragraphs about why I should/shouldn't use specific terms you guys don't like.

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17 hours ago, Shitty Rambo said:

Read your first two sentences and gonna stop ya right there with a good ol' fashioned:

 

445578_242275324_product_800x.png?v=1480

 

Not trying to be a dick. Collectivism is bullshit (ironic to say on a message board called Vinyl Collective, I know) in general. You're free to associate with whoever the hell you please, but making an arguemnt that I use 'labels' in a way you deem acceptable is a waste of your time, trust me.

Super fair.  Sorry if I came off a bit condescending.  I've been hanging with these socialists lately and they're hardcore about that kind of stuff.  They must have gotten into my head.

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8 hours ago, Shitty Rambo said:

*Jesus this interface sucks on mobile!*

 

Let's back track a bit here, especially before we delve too deep into making character assessments of people we've never talked to before...

 

I may have misunderstood the argument  @jesse and @Carly Rae Jepsen and trying to make. Are you guys under the impression that me or another user here can prove, with out the shadow of a doubt, that the Obama administration spied on Donald Trump? Haha. I said it's likely, of course I don't absolutely know for sure and either way the truth wouldn't change the disdain I have for both of them. 

 

If leaning hard into being independent and not trusting either the left or the right makes me arrogant then fuck it. I'm not looking to have anyone agree with me or think the same way I do, and I'm not interested in making other people's problems my problems (unless it's VC community related of course ;). Always down to voluntarily help or hear an argument that's backed with intellectual ideas, not going to read 5 paragraphs about why I should/shouldn't use specific terms you guys don't like.

I was referring specifically to your Unicorn post and the "leftists backing out of arguments they can't win" post. The tone changed from healthy debate to smug.

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8 hours ago, thefavoriteplay said:

Where is this sure-fire Russian evidence against Trump though? Does it matter that the Clintons and their chief of staff creep Podesta has ties to Russia that are proven?  For the creep Podesta I suggest seeing just how many ventures he is tied in with that are explored in Abby Martin's "The Empire Files" on John Podesta. 

Why is this about comparing the two still? No one is saying impeach Trump and bring in Hillary.

 

As to connections between Trump and Russia, there are dozens of hazy ones and a lot of very concrete ones - (Manafort, Flynn, Trump's kids saying that most of their investors are Russian, etc.) and there doesn't seem to be much doubt that Russia conducting an anti-intelligence (or whatever) campaign against Clinton. It seems well established that Putin blamed Clinton, to some degree, for fomenting dissent against him within Russian borders.

 

You can argue, blah blah blah MSM, bias, blah blah blah and choose not to believe any of this, which is fair, but these arguments that there are no Trump - Russia connections are based solely on conspiracy theory, not on reportable facts said during public hearings by the heads of our intelligence agencies. Like I said, no raging inferno yet (looking at you Flynn) but just a ton of really thick fucking smoke.  And as a reminder this is besides the point. Trump on his own merits is anti-science/environment, anti-middle class, anti-immigrant, is escalating an already hopelessly entrenched war, has said scary shit about nukes and engages endlessly in self-aggrandizing conspiracy. To a stinking coastal "leftist" like me (and the majority of our country) this is a waking nightmare, Russia or not.

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