Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
shenanigans

Potential mail fraud - paypal questions

Recommended Posts

Even doing it via Friends & Family won't protect you fully as if the buyer is particularly unhappy/troublesome/vindictive (as this one appears to be looking at all his negative feedback) then they can also report you to Paypal as using F&F for commercial selling means and Paypal can shut your account down altogether.

 

As buying/selling vinyl via the post is so prone to issues (even the best packed item can get damaged) its totally reliant on both parties being 100% honest and the odd arsehole is impossible to avoid on both ends. Unfortunately if you buy/sell enough you are almost guaranteed to have at least 1 bad experience eventually.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

14 hours ago, angryalan said:

Did you check his Discogs to see if he added that LP to his collection?

It'd be a stupid move on his part, but might be more evidence for you if he did.

I did. He hasn't added it, yet...

 

11 hours ago, Shitty Rambo said:

This type of shit is why I refuse to sell to anyone outside the US unless they have a history of positive feedback. Suppose some jerkoff in the states could pull the same stunt, but scam aside clearly this guy is a douche for even thinking a seam split matters at all. Also screw PayPal for backing his wack ass claim in the first place.

 

If I were you I'd call them and rip a representative's ass, and keep calling until they refund you.

 

Report him to Discogs too. Get his ass banned. Dude sucks. 

He's in the US. And yes, fuck paypal, but I appealed the decision and will give them a chance to review the "evidence" i.e. my word vs his and the fact that i filed a maul fraud complaint and the weight of the package, before I go off on them.

 

10 hours ago, unknown pleasures said:

If this was all handled in a vinyl-centric setting like Discogs where they deal with records and know records I think the OP would be fine, the trouble is once PayPal gets involved. Things that seem obvious to the people reading this - a few ounces in package weight makes a difference, seam splits are to be expected, etc - may as well be spoken in a foreign language as far as PayPal is concerned.

 

I wish instead of rolling out something like postage Discogs had focused on a payment system so we could all get off PayPal’s virtual monopoly. Maybe it’s something they’re working on - I certainly hope so. I think they’d be much more buyer conscious than eBay/PayPal because they are well versed with the product and with these types of scams.

 

Not many companies I hate dealing with, yet am continually forced to do business with, than PayPal...

Agreed. I would love to ditch paypal.

 

10 hours ago, docbronze said:

If someone pays you for goods and services under the guise of Friends & Family are you, the seller, guaranteed to be free of this sort of scrutiny and recourse on behalf of the buyer? If so, that is a great workaround for a trusted seller and a new or sketchy buyer.

 

5 hours ago, MrMatt767 said:

You make a good point but I think chalking it up to a life lesson doesn't really work in this situation because there's nothing really to take away from it. The only lesson is to use F&F for all future transactions considering this guy wouldn't have appeared too sketchy on first glance as he has a large number of positive feedbacks. Of course doing that will turn away almost all buyers for this seller and that's probably worse than getting scammed on occasion. Luckily for the seller the guy wasn't smart enough to just chuck a few more pieces of cardboard into the box to bring it up to weight, so he still has a very small chance of seeing his money again. However, this is a huge problem for Paypal. All the scammer has to do is bring the box up to weight and he has a watertight excuse to get his money back + keep whatever good he initially purchased. It quite literally is a tactic that will work with any purchase and I reckon Paypal would let a scammer do it a few times before they actually look at his transaction/dispute history and cotton on. I sell quite a few expensive bikes through Paypal and this a big fear of mine since I know that one bad buyer has the ability to put me massively out of pocket D:

Pretty sure you put yourself more at risk by accepting F&F for a purchase.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

From what I recall, when this board was dealing with the dick who was using his dad's card to buy a bunch of records, the friends and family payment had no effect. The dad just claimed it wasn't him and he got all of the money back. Unless I know someone, I just use Paypal the regular way. Maybe we need to go back to money orders or checks.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, Shitty Rambo said:

This type of shit is why I refuse to sell to anyone outside the US unless they have a history of positive feedback. Suppose some jerkoff in the states could pull the same stunt, but scam aside clearly this guy is a douche for even thinking a seam split matters at all. Also screw PayPal for backing his wack ass claim in the first place.

This is a terrible scam, and I feel sorry for the seller.

Regarding the comment about selling outside of the US, what is the relevance here?  Maybe I missed it, but is there a policy within Paypal, that treats domestic vs international differently?

Thanks

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
24 minutes ago, chicomak said:

This is a terrible scam, and I feel sorry for the seller.

Regarding the comment about selling outside of the US, what is the relevance here?  Maybe I missed it, but is there a policy within Paypal, that treats domestic vs international differently?

Thanks

I don't think there is a policy difference persay, but as a seller things become more convoluted when you deal internationally.  First off, int'l Paypal fees are higher, so you're technically losing money from the get-go.  But the real killer is international tracking.  There are not really inexpensive ways to ship international and have anything resembling a reliable tracking system.  Sure, Priority Mail will track you package when it is in the US, but beyond that it's really only delivery confirmation, if that.  International postal systems do not work well together.  At least when things are within the US, you have a reliable point-to-point tracking number that tells the whole story.  Once a package enters or exits, say, Brazil, your ability to "prove" anything via shipment data basically goes out the door.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, thievedrelic said:

I don't think there is a policy difference persay, but as a seller things become more convoluted when you deal internationally.  First off, int'l Paypal fees are higher, so you're technically losing money from the get-go.  But the real killer is international tracking.  There are not really inexpensive ways to ship international and have anything resembling a reliable tracking system.  Sure, Priority Mail will track you package when it is in the US, but beyond that it's really only delivery confirmation, if that.  International postal systems do not work well together.  At least when things are within the US, you have a reliable point-to-point tracking number that tells the whole story.  Once a package enters or exits, say, Brazil, your ability to "prove" anything via shipment data basically goes out the door.

This isn't true at all. The buyer pays any conversion fees ( I just bought from Gunner Records yesterday and had to pay an extra 3% to paypal - this is always on the buyer as you get charged an international fee with a credit card too). While USPS first class international is certainly not inexpensive - most countries do give delivery confirmation now if you pay online and print a label. This is all paypal requires. For the most part in my experience and chatting with people who run labels/distros - people won't mess with your package if it has a barcode because it's been tracked to their location (whether they show you that or not) and it's easier for them to get caught. And again the expensive shipping is on the buyer as well...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, shenanigans said:

This isn't true at all. The buyer pays any conversion fees ( I just bought from Gunner Records yesterday and had to pay an extra 3% to paypal - this is always on the buyer as you get charged an international fee with a credit card too).

Look at your Paypal contract.  You do get charged more for international orders.  Buyers do not mitigate this.

Sales within the US 2.9% + $0.30 per transaction
International sales 4.4% transaction fee plus a fixed fee based on currency received

 

1 minute ago, shenanigans said:

While USPS first class international is certainly not inexpensive - most countries do give delivery confirmation now if you pay online and print a label. This is all paypal requires. For the most part in my experience and chatting with people who run labels/distros - people won't mess with your package if it has a barcode because it's been tracked to their location (whether they show you that or not) and it's easier for them to get caught. And again the expensive shipping is on the buyer as well...

If you read my post I acknowledge that some countries do supply a delivery confirmation.  Some also don't.  I have gotten screwed by the latter, maybe you haven't.  I've also had people "reject" deliveries, and then had no proof that they ever reentered the postal system (because they didn't).  I never received those records back.  Exercise caution with int'l buyers that do not have good reputations.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, thievedrelic said:

Look at your Paypal contract.  You do get charged more for international orders.  Buyers do not mitigate this.

Sales within the US 2.9% + $0.30 per transaction
International sales 4.4% transaction fee plus a fixed fee based on currency received

 

If you read my post I acknowledge that some countries do supply a delivery confirmation.  Some also don't.  I have gotten screwed by the latter, maybe you haven't.  I've also had people "reject" deliveries, and then had no proof that they ever reentered the postal system (because they didn't).  I never received those records back.  Exercise caution with int'l buyers that do not have good reputations.

Never looked at that or noticed the 4.4% as opposed to 2.9%. Thanks for the heads up. 

 

Here's the list of countries that do delivery confirmation for USPS 1st class international.

https://support.shippingeasy.com/hc/en-us/articles/115001748523

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, chicomak said:

This is a terrible scam, and I feel sorry for the seller.

Regarding the comment about selling outside of the US, what is the relevance here?  Maybe I missed it, but is there a policy within Paypal, that treats domestic vs international differently?

Thanks

The only time I've ever been burned in a sale is when I've sold to someone overseas. Has happened to me with both electronics and records.

 

This has nothing to do with fees or anything, I'm just not looking to get ripped off. Like I said, I'll sell to them if they have good feedback, if they don't then tough fluff.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Really sorry this happened to you, OP. I wish there was a way to sell records without being exposed to theft or fraud but the reality is we are always susceptible. If you ran a physical shop, you'd have to account for inevitable theft and shoplifting and it's easy to forget that online shops are also dealing with that threat. Thankfully, a vast majority of people buying records are decent folks.

 

Thanks for taking your own time to report the user to Discogs and PayPal. You might not get your money/record back but you are helping to make it harder for that idiot to do this again. You should at least feel good about that. Beyond reporting them, I'd recommend keeping your head up and not expecting that all your good customers are now thieves in waiting. IMO, a few awful people shouldn't force us to employ a scorched earth response that makes us paranoid about the 99.99% of folks who are respectable. Sorry again you had to deal with this and thanks again for reporting that dumbass.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

From the source


I Returned him his item. Seller sold me an item in NM/NM conditions and when it arrived the cover had seam split damage. The vinyl was outside the cover upon arrival so this was no question pre-existing damage. When confronting him about the issue he called me a liar and told me to bad, no refunds. I had to jump through every leangthy hoop in order to return him his not as described item where He continued to call me a scam artist to the admins. Now he’s claiming I sent him an empty box and that he’s going to prosecute me. Contacting everybody he can to smear me and cause trouble. Your obviously his friend or something so I’m sure your judgment is biased. Fair enough, but I’m not gonna let this BS and his harassment continue. Funny how it’s always the perpetrator who makes the most noise. 

Edited by Tidal Wave

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
24 minutes ago, Tidal Wave said:

From the source


I Returned him his item. Seller sold me an item in NM/NM conditions and when it arrived the cover had seam split damage. The vinyl was outside the cover upon arrival so this was no question pre-existing damage. When confronting him about the issue he called me a liar and told me to bad, no refunds. I had to jump through every leangthy hoop in order to return him his not as described item where He continued to call me a scam artist to the admins. Now he’s claiming I sent him an empty box and that he’s going to prosecute me. Contacting everybody he can to smear me and cause trouble. Your obviously his friend or something so I’m sure your judgment is biased. Fair enough, but I’m not gonna let this BS and his harassment continue. Funny how it’s always the perpetrator who makes the most noise. 

LOL. funny how this guy is always blaming someone else. his discogs shows a pattern of this "woe is me" attitude. once or twice could be chalked up to bad luck. the 7 or so negatives i read yesterday coupled with shenanigans issue says this dude is a sociopath.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Tidal Wave said:

From the source


I Returned him his item. Seller sold me an item in NM/NM conditions and when it arrived the cover had seam split damage. The vinyl was outside the cover upon arrival so this was no question pre-existing damage. When confronting him about the issue he called me a liar and told me to bad, no refunds. I had to jump through every leangthy hoop in order to return him his not as described item where He continued to call me a scam artist to the admins. Now he’s claiming I sent him an empty box and that he’s going to prosecute me. Contacting everybody he can to smear me and cause trouble. Your obviously his friend or something so I’m sure your judgment is biased. Fair enough, but I’m not gonna let this BS and his harassment continue. Funny how it’s always the perpetrator who makes the most noise. 

Did you email this guy or what?  Honestly let's not turn this thread into a pitchforks and torches thing.  VCers only getting one side of a story and then harassing people is not a good look.  I agree from his feedback and OP's story, it is believable that he is a jerk/in the wrong, but we don't know for sure what's true and what is not.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, swb said:

Really sorry this happened to you, OP. I wish there was a way to sell records without being exposed to theft or fraud but the reality is we are always susceptible. If you ran a physical shop, you'd have to account for inevitable theft and shoplifting and it's easy to forget that online shops are also dealing with that threat. Thankfully, a vast majority of people buying records are decent folks.

 

Thanks for taking your own time to report the user to Discogs and PayPal. You might not get your money/record back but you are helping to make it harder for that idiot to do this again. You should at least feel good about that. Beyond reporting them, I'd recommend keeping your head up and not expecting that all your good customers are now thieves in waiting. IMO, a few awful people shouldn't force us to employ a scorched earth response that makes us paranoid about the 99.99% of folks who are respectable. Sorry again you had to deal with this and thanks again for reporting that dumbass.

I appreciate the positive words. I've been buying and selling records for almost 10 years now and this is the only time I've had a situation where I might get screwed. Unfortunately it's an expensive record, but I'm going to do everything in my power to prevent it. After I hear back from Paypal and USPS and bitch to Paypal if it doesn't go my way then next step is NYPD. But one bad apple isn't going to change how I do things. Only other time something like this has happened was RJ (who I recently saw at a show and considered punching in the face) - but I got out of that situation and got my refund early.

 

2 hours ago, Metal Mike said:

giphy.webp

 

Also, @shenanigans strikes me as legit.

Thanks dude. Like I said I've been buying and selling records for almost 10 years now and I've been on this board for over 8. I think this guys feedback speaks for itself.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Update: I won the paypal appeal and got the $$ back. Big thanks to @thievedrelic for the advice on checking the weight since I'm pretty sure that evidence tipped the scales in my favor.

 

Here's the buyer's info for anyone who wants to make sure they avoid him. I'll be posting in the bad buyers thread too.

Ryan La Rue

Colton, Oregon

https://www.discogs.com/user/Skeletal-Life

https://www.facebook.com/ryan.larue.946

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, shenanigans said:

Update: I won the paypal appeal and got the $$ back. Big thanks to @thievedrelic for the advice on checking the weight since I'm pretty sure that evidence tipped the scales in my favor.

 

Here's the buyer's info for anyone who wants to make sure they avoid him. I'll be posting in the bad buyers thread too.

Ryan La Rue

Colton, Oregon

https://www.discogs.com/user/Skeletal-Life

https://www.facebook.com/ryan.larue.946

Awesome, glad it worked out!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for Vinyl Collective. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×