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shenanigans

Potential mail fraud - paypal questions

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So I had a guy buy an expensive record from me at the end of January. Upon his receipt of the item, he claimed that it had a seam split and a dinged corner and filed a claim through paypal. Paypal decided that he could return the item for a refund. An empty box got to me on Friday, but Paypal refunded him already because the tracking # was delivered. I've contacted Paypal to appeal the resolution decision. I was going to wait on the mail fraud complaint but Paypal asked me to file one. Anyone deal with this before? Any advice?

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6 minutes ago, shenanigans said:

So I had a guy buy an expensive record from me at the end of January. Upon his receipt of the item, he claimed that it had a seam split and a dinged corner and filed a claim through paypal. Paypal decided that he could return the item for a refund. An empty box got to me on Friday, but Paypal refunded him already because the tracking # was delivered. I've contacted Paypal to appeal the resolution decision. I was going to wait on the mail fraud complaint but Paypal asked me to file one. Anyone deal with this before? Any advice?

In my experience, you're fucked.

That being said, there should be package info associated with the tracking number.   If he really sent an empty box, it should have weighed a few ounces at best at the Post Office when he checked it in.  Does the label on the box list a weight?  That's the only evidence for your side that I can think of.  If it really is only a few ounces, it's worth submitting that - in photo form - to Paypal as part of the dispute.

 

Edit:  The weight is important because the lightest record I've ever sent was maybe 14oz.  A 2xLP would be more like 1.8 pounds.  What kind of record did you originally ship?

Edited by thievedrelic

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3 minutes ago, thievedrelic said:

In my experience, you're fucked.

That being said, there should be package info associated with the tracking number.   If he really sent an empty box, it should have weighed a few ounces at best at the Post Office when he checked it in.  Does the label on the box list a weight?  That's the only evidence for your side that I can think of.  If it really is only a few ounces, it's worth submitting that - in photo form - to Paypal as part of the dispute.

 

Edit:  The weight is important because the lightest record I've ever sent was maybe 14oz.  A 2xLP would be more like 1.8 pounds.  What kind of record did you originally ship?

I moved recently and the package was actually shipped to my parents address. He did send the package from a post office (as opposed to paying online and putting in the weight himself. The picture I have is too blurry to see the weight, but I will add this information to the paypal case. He did put a piece of cardboard inside the box. It was just a single LP. I will weigh the box with a record and without and pass that information along to paypal as well.

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Update. The package he sent was weighed by the post office. at 13.6 oz. The box with a record in it is 17.3 oz. Passing this information along to paypal. Thanks for the idea.

 

9 minutes ago, ZeroNowhere said:

Was this a Discogs transaction?  If it was, could you provide his user name so folks on here who sell on Discogs can block him?  And I'm sorry to hear about this.  It's some shady shit that he'll sadly probably get away with.

It was a not a discogs transaction, but he did initially contact me on discogs. In light of his feedback I had him pay for insurance so I was ready to file a claim with USPS for the item being damaged which I will still do since that was his initial paypal claim. Here's his username. I'd recommend everyone block him.

 

https://www.discogs.com/user/Skeletal-Life

9 minutes ago, jhulud said:

If it's someone here in VC...let me know. I am not putting up with that shit. Scammers will get bounced w/o warning.

 

Juan, It wasn't through VC so not sure if he's on here. Once this is sorted out I'll post his information.

4 minutes ago, floyd_z said:

Wow that's savage.  Did he have it sent to his home address?  I thought I heard recently that there are about 2,500 postal inspectors nationwide and they take fraud pretty seriously.  Hope they catch him!

Yes, USPS has a specific arm of federal law enforcement. It was sent to his PO Box so I don't think it should be hard to figure out who he is/where he lives.

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If you can verify his address and name is all legally correct and the person you are dealing with you could take it to small claims court depending on where you live. A legal action would force him to comply.  I would recommend the advice of counsel though. Sometimes all it takes is a scary legal letter in the mail to fix it.

Edited by Kanellos

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2 hours ago, shenanigans said:

Update. The package he sent was weighed by the post office. at 13.6 oz. The box with a record in it is 17.3 oz. Passing this information along to paypal. Thanks for the idea.

 

 

Well, a 120 gram record is 4.232oz, plus the mailer, and the jacket would add to that. So is your evidence conclusive?!?!

 

This was obviously not a 180g record, folks!

 

 

Also. This why I have a very hard stance on payment via friends and family. No exceptions.

USPS didn't do shit. PayPal sided with them. 

I was out the cash.

 

Lesson learned and move on.

 

Edited by Satan

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9 minutes ago, Satan said:

Well, a 120 gram record is 4.232oz, plus the mailer, and the jacket would add to that. So is your evidence conclusive?!?!

 

This was obviously not a 180g record, folks!

 

 

Also. This why I have a very hard stance on payment via friends and family. No exceptions.

USPS didn't do shit. PayPal sided with them. 

I was out the cash.

 

Lesson learned and move on.

 

The package he sent was 13 oz. The mailer with a record in it is 17 oz. I put it on a scale opened up with a record on it to show as evidence.

 

3 minutes ago, ethereal said:

I would post his username and experience to r/vinyl and get the word out because this is totally unacceptable and something no seller should have to go through, ever.

I will once everything is settled. Don't want to screw myself over by posting their information too soon.

 

Also should add that package was insured (told him he had to pay for insurance because of his feedback) so I've also filed an insurance claim with USPS over the item being "damaged to start with"

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The trouble the optimistic people on here have is  they think USPS, PayPal, etc. actually cares.

 

No one cares. They get their fees, they’re happy. Your best bet is to write it off as a loss/life lesson and move on. Trying to put together “evidence” to convince anyone he’s a scammer (even though he 100%, obviously is) is only going to mean you lose more time on this.

 

Sorry for being so pessimistic but that’s the way the cookie crumbles. 

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This type of shit is why I refuse to sell to anyone outside the US unless they have a history of positive feedback. Suppose some jerkoff in the states could pull the same stunt, but scam aside clearly this guy is a douche for even thinking a seam split matters at all. Also screw PayPal for backing his wack ass claim in the first place.

 

If I were you I'd call them and rip a representative's ass, and keep calling until they refund you.

 

Report him to Discogs too. Get his ass banned. Dude sucks. 

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5 minutes ago, Shitty Rambo said:

This type of shit is why I refuse to sell to anyone outside the US unless they have a history of positive feedback. Suppose some jerkoff in the states could pull the same stunt, but scam aside clearly this guy is a douche for even thinking a seam split matters at all. Also screw PayPal for backing his wack ass claim in the first place.

 

If I were you I'd call them and rip a representative's ass, and keep calling until they refund you.

 

Report him to Discogs too. Get his ass banned. Dude sucks. 

Everyone involved in this (seller and buyer) are based in the US. 

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If this was all handled in a vinyl-centric setting like Discogs where they deal with records and know records I think the OP would be fine, the trouble is once PayPal gets involved. Things that seem obvious to the people reading this - a few ounces in package weight makes a difference, seam splits are to be expected, etc - may as well be spoken in a foreign language as far as PayPal is concerned.

 

I wish instead of rolling out something like postage Discogs had focused on a payment system so we could all get off PayPal’s virtual monopoly. Maybe it’s something they’re working on - I certainly hope so. I think they’d be much more buyer conscious than eBay/PayPal because they are well versed with the product and with these types of scams.

 

Not many companies I hate dealing with, yet am continually forced to do business with, than PayPal...

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6 hours ago, Satan said:

Well, a 120 gram record is 4.232oz, plus the mailer, and the jacket would add to that. So is your evidence conclusive?!?!

 

This was obviously not a 180g record, folks!

 

 

Also. This why I have a very hard stance on payment via friends and family. No exceptions.

USPS didn't do shit. PayPal sided with them. 

I was out the cash.

 

Lesson learned and move on.

 

If someone pays you for goods and services under the guise of Friends & Family are you, the seller, guaranteed to be free of this sort of scrutiny and recourse on behalf of the buyer? If so, that is a great workaround for a trusted seller and a new or sketchy buyer.

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8 hours ago, unknown pleasures said:

The trouble the optimistic people on here have is  they think USPS, PayPal, etc. actually cares.

 

No one cares. They get their fees, they’re happy. Your best bet is to write it off as a loss/life lesson and move on. Trying to put together “evidence” to convince anyone he’s a scammer (even though he 100%, obviously is) is only going to mean you lose more time on this.

 

Sorry for being so pessimistic but that’s the way the cookie crumbles. 

You make a good point but I think chalking it up to a life lesson doesn't really work in this situation because there's nothing really to take away from it. The only lesson is to use F&F for all future transactions considering this guy wouldn't have appeared too sketchy on first glance as he has a large number of positive feedbacks. Of course doing that will turn away almost all buyers for this seller and that's probably worse than getting scammed on occasion. Luckily for the seller the guy wasn't smart enough to just chuck a few more pieces of cardboard into the box to bring it up to weight, so he still has a very small chance of seeing his money again. However, this is a huge problem for Paypal. All the scammer has to do is bring the box up to weight and he has a watertight excuse to get his money back + keep whatever good he initially purchased. It quite literally is a tactic that will work with any purchase and I reckon Paypal would let a scammer do it a few times before they actually look at his transaction/dispute history and cotton on. I sell quite a few expensive bikes through Paypal and this a big fear of mine since I know that one bad buyer has the ability to put me massively out of pocket D:

Edited by MrMatt767

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