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the word situational, while appropriate, doesn't even belong. 

 

from the day that he joined the starting lineup this year, coming off the dl, he was a fucking beast.

 

go ahead and assume whatever you'd like based on the mitchell report. the fact is that the dude has cleared every test that's come his way since, and is STILL hitting like he's in his prime.

 

first ballot hall of famer. because if rivera will be the first ever first ballot closer, then how could you possibly discount ortiz as the first first ballot dh?

 

first.

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Ortiz is far from a first ballot guy. Baseball actually reserves that for the guys who unquestionably deserve it.

Ortiz didn't hit his stride until he was 27. He doesn't have 2000 hits. He doesn't have 400 HRs. And he's a DH, which makes these deficits even more glaring.

I think he'll get in. It just won't be first ballot.

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the word situational, while appropriate, doesn't even belong. 

 

from the day that he joined the starting lineup this year, coming off the dl, he was a fucking beast.

 

go ahead and assume whatever you'd like based on the mitchell report. the fact is that the dude has cleared every test that's come his way since, and is STILL hitting like he's in his prime.

 

first ballot hall of famer. because if rivera will be the first ever first ballot closer, then how could you possibly discount ortiz as the first first ballot dh?

 

first.

 

the testing done from 2003 - 2007 was significantly different than the testing that began in 2008 when his numbers dropped off (while still being pretty damn good).  im not saying he doped, but man his numbers certainly scream something.  doesnt change the fact I enjoy watching him.

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There are plenty of guys who don't hit their stride until their mid to late 20s but are superstars after that. Matt Holliday and Ryan Howard come to mind offhand. The fact that Ortiz struggled from 21 to 26 does not mean he was on roids. Not everyone is mlb ready at 21.

Plus he had some pretty sick minor league seasons (31/124 at age 21 and 30/110 at age 23). There was lots of reason to believe he could be a great player or the twins wouldn't have called him up 5 times.

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The quality of evidence surrounding biogenesis significantly exceeded the Mitchell report.

 

My point was that "he's passed every test" is not a valid argument considering nobody but Melky and Colon from Biogenesis failed a test.

 

Ortiz was also on the supposed leaked list of positive tests from the anonymous survey from like 03.

 

I've posted this in this very thread; while I don't think the game is clean, I definitely would no longer consider this the steroid era, as players are no longer freely running around putting anything and everything into their body. So look back at the numbers from 99 to the mid 00's and compare them to now. Look at the homers and the OPS's that guys were putting up at that time compared to what guys are putting up now. So personally, I assume that 54 homers and a 1.049 OPS in 2006 is not clean.

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It technically is a valid argument but it doesn't prove anything. So I'm with you there -- we'll never know for sure one way or the other what a guy was doing in 2006.

But I'd also point out that over the last 3 years when their has been drug testing his OPS is what, around .970/.980? 1.05 doesn't seem like a stretch from there. Guys are gonna have better and worse years. Guys have hit more than 54 HRs in a season when there definitely weren't any drugs helping them. 30 years old is pretty close to a guys power hitting prime as well.

I just lean towards giving the benefit of the doubt to guys who continued to be top 10 hitters in the game after steroid testing came in (assuming no positive tests or any other funny stuff). I also think you need to put stats like OPS in context over history. How many guys are there throughout history that are 6'4" 250 to compare Ortiz's power numbers to? We know more about exercise and nutrition now. Our baseball players also don't become used car salesmen in the offseason to pay their rent. Even without roids, things are different.

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There are plenty of guys who don't hit their stride until their mid to late 20s but are superstars after that. Matt Holliday and Ryan Howard come to mind offhand. The fact that Ortiz struggled from 21 to 26 does not mean he was on roids. Not everyone is mlb ready at 21.

Plus he had some pretty sick minor league seasons (31/124 at age 21 and 30/110 at age 23). There was lots of reason to believe he could be a great player or the twins wouldn't have called him up 5 times.

 

oh I agree with you, which is why im not saying he used anything, but the argument could be made by someone if they really wanted too.  

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Just want to say how much I appreciate the discussion that goes on in this and the other pro sports threads.

For all the bullshit and nonsense that happens on VC, we're able to talk sports like adults- which is rare. Usually a topic reserved for douchebaggery and asshattery as the rest of the Internet shows.

And I Completely agree with the above statement.

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And as far as steroids go, here's my take.

Up until the early-mid 00's, it's easy to just assume that anyone who's jersey didn't say GRIFFEY may or may not have or probably used.

And if Ortiz did, then whatever. Because he had to go through a Yankees team that might as well have been sponsored by Jamba Juice.

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Now I'm curious. What is YOUR textbook definition of butterface? Because it can't possibly be the one I'm familiar with.

I wish lebowski were at this bar with me right now. This fucking jabroni behind me hasn't shut his mouth the whole time I've been here. And he's just a clueless moron. You would embarrass this clown.

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