thebiglebowski Posted November 2, 2013 Share Posted November 2, 2013 If Ortiz plays to 41 too he will have way better numbers than Edgar. He'll have about 150 more homers and a couple hundred more RBI. Most importantly, he will have at least 3 rings. His popularity will probably also give him a leg up (shouldn't, but will). You want to talk about someone who's numbers fit the profile of a roider, look at Edgar. Did almost all if his damage between 32 and 40. Never hit 30 bombs in a year then comes put with 37/145 at age 37. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Posted November 2, 2013 Share Posted November 2, 2013 he failed a drug test, he'll never get in 1st ballot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 2, 2013 Share Posted November 2, 2013 he didn't fail shit. an american league starting pitcher only plays one side of the ball, once a week. pretty sure there are a few of them in cooperstown. yet the most clutch hitter in post season history can't because people still fail to recognize his position, 41 years after its inception. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lemongoat Posted November 2, 2013 Share Posted November 2, 2013 I think you understand the difference between a DH and a SP, so you should know that there is no comparison. As for best post season hitter of all time, he has an OPS under .700 in 7 of his 17 career series'. How can that be true if he's clutch? Of course, I don't believe in a clutch player. There is a clutch hit, or a player can happen to have a few clutch hits in a series, but it's not something that he can possess as a skill. chamb117 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Posted November 2, 2013 Share Posted November 2, 2013 he didn't fail shit. an american league starting pitcher only plays one side of the ball, once a week. pretty sure there are a few of them in cooperstown. yet the most clutch hitter in post season history can't because people still fail to recognize his position, 41 years after its inception. doesnt matter if he didnt actually fail it or not, his name is associated with PED's and there are enough old school HOF voters out there that will never let him in on the first ballot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebiglebowski Posted November 3, 2013 Share Posted November 3, 2013 I think Ryan is the only guy who thinks Ortiz is first ballot. Not to say his opinion doesn't matter, but we don't have to get into it like the Miggy/Trout MVP debate. Postseason OPS has to be considered very carefully. It's kind of like grading a guy on a single April (small sample size). That said, there are 3 guys in the top 10 in playoff OPS with 100+ ABs -- Ruth, Gehrig, and Beltran. That might be the stat that eventually gets Beltran in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebiglebowski Posted November 3, 2013 Share Posted November 3, 2013 Rumor is that Ausmus is the new Tigers manager. I kinda like it. I just didn't want another "old school" manager. He's really lacking in experience, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kyacrash Posted November 4, 2013 Share Posted November 4, 2013 doesnt matter if he didnt actually fail it or not, his name is associated with PED's and there are enough old school HOF voters out there that will never let him in on the first ballot. He didn't fail anything. And you're right, having your name associated can tarnish your HOF chance. However, and this is something many people forget/overlook, David Ortiz is the ONLY player to have his name associated with PED's, but have Major League Baseball publicly outright oppose the accusation and clear his name. That is pretty significant, and I think most HOF voters realize that. I'm a die hard Red Sox fan, so I'm sure I'm biased, but I can't imagine him not being in the HOF. A first rounder? Maybe not. But I don't think it's a stretch to say that he will be the first DH ever in the hall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chamb117 Posted November 4, 2013 Share Posted November 4, 2013 wait, are we being serious about putting david ortiz in the hall of fame? right now? if he can pump out 30 home runs the next four years then maybe. MAYBE. hall of fame voters are erratic when they consider postseason stats (i don't remember which ESPN analyst looked at this, but he did it as a reflection upon beltran's postseason career). right now he's got 430ish home runs, and edgar martinez has a higher OPS/OPS+ as lemongoat mentioned (and edgar has the higher BA). i'm cherry-picking stats, but basically the best stats he's got going for him simply aren't going to cut it. let's have this discussion again in three or four years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Posted November 4, 2013 Share Posted November 4, 2013 wait, are we being serious about putting david ortiz in the hall of fame? right now? if he can pump out 30 home runs the next four years then maybe. MAYBE. hall of fame voters are erratic when they consider postseason stats (i don't remember which ESPN analyst looked at this, but he did it as a reflection upon beltran's postseason career). right now he's got 430ish home runs, and edgar martinez has a higher OPS/OPS+ as lemongoat mentioned (and edgar has the higher BA). i'm cherry-picking stats, but basically the best stats he's got going for him simply aren't going to cut it. let's have this discussion again in three or four years. pretty much. I think Ortiz will get into the HOF, but he wont be a 1st ballot, or even a 2nd. hell, he'll probably go a Jim Rice route and go until the final ballot in my mind. he has no auto-HOF stats currently, he needs to get 500 Hr's and he's a lock to get in at some point. but again, regardless of if he was exhonerated by MLB for that leaked "failed" test in 2003, there are enough old school HOF ballot voters who will never vote for a guy associated with PED's, to them its Guilty even if proven Innocent in regards to PED's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chamb117 Posted November 11, 2013 Share Posted November 11, 2013 just glad that fernandez got ROY and not puig. that's all. also, i miss this thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catalinacaper Posted November 12, 2013 Share Posted November 12, 2013 Braves getting a new stadium and Turner is getting demolished in 4 years. Hmmm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebiglebowski Posted November 12, 2013 Share Posted November 12, 2013 The what tiger stadium currently looks like: Thats Motor City Casino in the background. I'm sure Atlanta will make better use of the land when it is gone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebiglebowski Posted November 12, 2013 Share Posted November 12, 2013 Also, the local neighborhood guys cut the grass, not the city. If they weren't there, it would be a prairie. That picture looks nicer than it does in person. I think it is cool to keep baseball there but a beer league team couldn't use the field. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catalinacaper Posted November 12, 2013 Share Posted November 12, 2013 Turner is in the middle of downtown Atlanta, it's in a sketch area. My guess is they turn it into another park of some sort, or just build more government housing on it. Excited to see what they come up with in the new stadium design though. Hope they keep a lot of the nice things about Turner in the new one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GradedOnACurve Posted November 15, 2013 Share Posted November 15, 2013 I can't fathom the fact that the stadium opened for baseball in 97 and its already obselete. The stadium is still a teenager and they want the public to help fund a new one. Wow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GradedOnACurve Posted November 15, 2013 Share Posted November 15, 2013 Also I can't believe I agree with the baseball writers with both ROY and Cy Youngs and one MVP. I think Cabrera had a better year this year, but Trout is still the best player. Not highway robbery like last year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David The Gnome Posted November 15, 2013 Share Posted November 15, 2013 Clint Hurdle NL Manager of the Year. Andrew McCutchen NL MVP. This is a beautiful thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lemongoat Posted November 15, 2013 Share Posted November 15, 2013 Trout was MVP again Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Posted November 15, 2013 Share Posted November 15, 2013 more importantly... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebiglebowski Posted November 15, 2013 Share Posted November 15, 2013 Cabrera was leading Trout in WAR until he got injured. He limped home in the last 1/3, no doubt. The first 2/3 was so good, though, he deserves the MVP. Had 100 RBIs at the all star break! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lemongoat Posted November 15, 2013 Share Posted November 15, 2013 Cabrera was leading Trout in WAR until he got injured. He limped home in the last 1/3, no doubt. The first 2/3 was so good, though, he deserves the MVP. Had 100 RBIs at the all star break! And? He got injured. Colon ran out of gas, Should he have won Cy Young? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebiglebowski Posted November 15, 2013 Share Posted November 15, 2013 And? He got injured. Colon ran out of gas, Should he have won Cy Young? I was just pointing out that the Trout lovers just scream "war...war...war..." and he's not as dominant in that stat as they think (at least this year). Trout produced 206 runs, Miggy produced 240, and did it in 9 less games. Some would argue that games played number goes in Trout's favor, but the way that I look at it is that I'd rather the MVP reward the better player than the healthier player (to a point, not saying 40 games is enough). Cabrera makes every other guy in the lineup better. Trout didn't seem to have that effect on Pujols or Hamilton. You want to argue defense? Trout had a negative DWAR this year. Yeah, Cabby's was a little worse (-1.5 vs. -.9) but that's not a huge difference. And this is all assuming you want to take a sabermetric approach. You want to take a more traditionalist approach, Cabby smokes Trout in HRs and RBIs, barely loses in runs, wins AVG/OBP/OPS. If Trout had last years stats this year, he might have won. He had better offensive stats in fewer games last year and played better defense (remember 6 months ago when we were talking about him showing up to camp pretty hefty? Maybe weaker defense was the result). This year was all Cabby. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lemongoat Posted November 15, 2013 Share Posted November 15, 2013 If you're going to use DWAR, then I assume it's safe to use WAR? Well Trout wins by almost 3 full wins. It depends what defensive stat you're looking at. While none are perfect, I look at runs saved, which has Trout +4 and Cabrera -17. Trout is the best player in baseball, had the best season in baseball in 2013 and has the best start to a career maybe ever. And he's been robbed of 2 MVP's Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebiglebowski Posted November 15, 2013 Share Posted November 15, 2013 If you're going to use DWAR, then I assume it's safe to use WAR? Well Trout wins by almost 3 full wins. It depends what defensive stat you're looking at. While none are perfect, I look at runs saved, which has Trout +4 and Cabrera -17. Trout is the best player in baseball, had the best season in baseball in 2013 and has the best start to a career maybe ever. And he's been robbed of 2 MVP's I'll admit to not knowing a ton about defensive metrics, which is why I use a catch-all stat like dWAR on the defensive side vs. looking at the individual hitting stats. Why is runs saved the stat to focus on? Why is it inconsistent with dWAR? Not just myself but in general, I think these inconsistencies are a huge part of the reason why the voters focus on offensive stats over defensive. Even if the runs saved stat is accurate, Cabrera is +34 on runs produced and -21 on runs allowed -- doesn't he win out? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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