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No. Just, no. What they did in school may or may not have anything to do with they are doing for work.

 

Well clearly someone's engineering degree grades isn't reflective of their ability to ability to be a chef (or any number of other possibilities).

 

My whole point was that getting good grades is an indicator that someone is A) smart and B ) works hard. It's not perfect indicator, but correlated. Obviously the perfect package in hiring someone right out of college would be straight As, perfect interview, requires little training, etc. so that you don't have to make tradeoffs. And you also obviously can't have Rain Man working for you because he's a walking calculator.

 

But I stand by my point exactly as I wrote it (assuming the job is in the field that someone went to school for). If you disagree, oh well. Hiring the right person for a job is not easy or an exact science.

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It's kinda nice to just be a student a little longer. Not saying you don't make strong points, but if you can maybe do some work grading papers and get your tuition paid for, it's nice to knock out the masters in a couple semesters rather than a class or two at a time after 9 hour days for 4 years.

From a point of view of purely maximizing earnings throughout you career, my gut would say that taking a year or two is the way to go. If you wait 10, you don't work as long after getting the degree. You've also pointed out the negative of zero, you have no work experience and will probably get about the same job you would have with an undergrad degree (probably differs across fields, though).

Would be interesting if there were statistics to back up any of my guesses off or show I'm off.

If the employer will pay for the masters (this is pretty much the norm in engineering), then no question, the work a little first route will pay off big time compared to paying out of pocket.

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It's kinda nice to just be a student a little longer. Not saying you don't make strong points, but if you can maybe do some work grading papers and get your tuition paid for, it's nice to knock out the masters in a couple semesters rather than a class or two at a time after 9 hour days for 4 years.

From a point of view of purely maximizing earnings throughout you career, my gut would say that taking a year or two is the way to go. If you wait 10, you don't work as long after getting the degree. You've also pointed out the negative of zero, you have no work experience and will probably get about the same job you would have with an undergrad degree (probably differs across fields, though).

Would be interesting if there were statistics to back up any of my guesses off or show I'm off.

If the employer will pay for the masters (this is pretty much the norm in engineering), then no question, the work a little first route will pay off big time compared to paying out of pocket.

 

I second this.  I work full time in the Air Force and knock out grad classes on my off time.  It doesn't leave quite enough time for crate diggin'!

 

I am fortunate that I don't have to consider the financial aspect as my classes and books are paid for by the military.

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I passed!  yay!  phd defense was significantly easier than the prelim / thesis proposal I did a year and a half ago

 

my reward: making an appointment to get a minnesota tattoo (the outline of the state, not a portrait of a gopher) and having my first sips of beer with my advisor (I'm straightedge, but bayesian statisticians are notorious for being alcoholics, so I figured this would serve as the final step toward becoming a bayesian)

 

I can't wait to tell people "that'll be Doctor Quick, please" :)

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and as for the "wait vs. jump straight to grad school" debate, I'd think it just depends on your current financial situation and how you plan to pay for school.  if you need money /now/ (e.g., you've got a family to support), you'd probably be better off waiting until things are better financially.  if you don't need money and you're "good enough" to get an RA/TA position to cover tuition + stipend, I see no reason why you'd want to wait.  grad school + no experience is surely better than undergrad + 2 years of experience, right?  if not, I would think that that would defeat the purpose of going to grad school.

 

then again, in (bio)statistics, you typically get an RA position that's essentially like having a job, so after 5 years in grad school I've essentially got ~5 years of work experience.  I'm not sure how different this is from other fields

 

money issues aside, the main benefit of going straight to grad school is that you never lose the "student" mindset, as study habits can be tough to re-learn

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Think you are lumping masters a phd together. Masters tend tend to have fewer and less lucrative ways of getting money for school (they are out there though). When someone generically says "grad school" I assume masters.

If you want a phd, yeah, just keep going Neil your done. Takes most people til their later 20s to 30s even going straight through. Get that shit done and don't be in school until you are 40.

You publish yet? I'm still working on publishing out of my dissertation. Been waiting for weeks to get some of my advisors time to go over a draft.

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why rush right from under grad into grad school?  why not work a year or two first before going to grad school?  why get 6 years of edcation and two degrees and zero work experience?

 

I want to teach outside of the U.S. 

So pretty much I'm just trying to get my MA asap so I can get that started. 

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gotcha, I just wanted to ask.  there are a number of people who are in my program who went from UG straight into the masters program... and I think "2 years relevant exp. or MA" is crap, honestly.  Just because you can read books and take tests does not mean you can apply those skills and knowledge in the workplace. 

 

But I agree, it is all a case-by-case situation, it depends on the programs you want to do, medical/PhD makes sense to just continue, whereas going to get your MBA right after grad school, to me, doesnt make any at all, and it depends on your financial situation as well.  I get that, I just feel like the question of "why not just work a couple years first" isnt asked enough to younger students rushing right into grad school. 

 

Also, I got my masters working full time taking 2 classes a semester, spring summer fall, in 2 years, not 4. 

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gotcha, I just wanted to ask.  there are a number of people who are in my program who went from UG straight into the masters program... and I think "2 years relevant exp. or MA" is crap, honestly.  Just because you can read books and take tests does not mean you can apply those skills and knowledge in the workplace. 

 

But I agree, it is all a case-by-case situation, it depends on the programs you want to do, medical/PhD makes sense to just continue, whereas going to get your MBA right after grad school, to me, doesnt make any at all, and it depends on your financial situation as well.  I get that, I just feel like the question of "why not just work a couple years first" isnt asked enough to younger students rushing right into grad school. 

 

Also, I got my masters working full time taking 2 classes a semester, spring summer fall, in 2 years, not 4. 

 

Yeah definitely I have a few cousins that are still going to school even though they should be finished with it by now. I just think that some people get too comfortable in school and that discourages them from the real world. If that makes any sense.

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I think a lot depends on your program. I finished my masters in May. Starting PhD "officially" in a few weeks. I'm in physical sciences so the majority of my program is doing research in a lab - I get paid for it so money's not an issue. Hoping by the end of the month I'll have an additional fellowship and trying to teach a class rather than TA to get paid even more. With most of my classes done from the masters program and a solid amount of research that I didn't use for my thesis. I'm hoping to have the PhD done in 3 years.

 

Also, just turned down a job $50K/yr starting because it didn't sound very guaranteed after January. Not willing to give up the PhD program for something that I don't know I'll still have in 6 months.

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Think you are lumping masters a phd together. Masters tend tend to have fewer and less lucrative ways of getting money for school (they are out there though). When someone generically says "grad school" I assume masters.

If you want a phd, yeah, just keep going Neil your done. Takes most people til their later 20s to 30s even going straight through. Get that shit done and don't be in school until you are 40.

You publish yet? I'm still working on publishing out of my dissertation. Been waiting for weeks to get some of my advisors time to go over a draft.

 

in biostat, our MS students occasionally get RAs in places like the school of nursing doing t-tests and things like that (I worked as a physician's personal statistician during my MS program), while others get TA positions teaching intro stat courses to other grad students.  that said, I know epidemiology grad students have a much tougher time getting funding, so I'm aware of the fact that I've lived a pretty sheltered academic life

 

paper 1 from the dissertation is published, paper 2 is under revision, paper 3 has been submitted, and paper 4 is in preparation.  in addition to those, I'll have another ~8 papers accepted/submitted by the end of the year, so hopefully I'll be in position to get a faculty position in the next year or two

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Nice. You're killing it. Leafed through that paper. Will actually read it later.

My papers are lacking (zero right now) but oh well. I was never trying to be faculty. Still trying, because papers help with industry positions and promotions too. But if I do my job but don't publish, I won't lose it. I really didn't like my topic very much and wish I had chosen something else (which I believe would have led to better results). Not like you can go halfway and say "this topic kinda sucks, can I start over?"

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  • 4 months later...

So I figure I'll throw out my situation since I've hinted at it a few times through this board.

 

I'm current a PhD Candidate in Chemical Engineering at Oregon State. I jumped straight from my Bachelors to PhD mostly because of the "why the hell not" mentality (I planned on getting my PhD regardless of the path). I applied to schools like UColorado Boulder, NCST, UF, etc. and had no luck mostly due to my undergrad university (Florida Tech) being a relative unknown. Currently I'm on a TA right now making a middle of the road stipend, ~$1500 a month before taxes. Enough to live like a poor college student. My research adviser is in the sub-school of BioEng, I've just started immersing myself in the research I'll be doing. When my TA ends in June I'll be catching a plane to Mainz, Germany to work on a project for two months that my adviser has been a part of with the Max Planck Institute for Polymers. The project has to do with using X-Ray Photoelectron Spectroscopy (or Electron Spectroscopy for Chemical Analysis) which allows you to look at chemical structure at surfaces, to analyze whether amyloid fibers (think globs of proteins), which are representative of the physical onset of Alzheimer's in the brain, can be treated and essentially "unwound" by attaching EGCG (a common chemical in green tea) to the fibers. It's mostly an opportunity to learn all of the analytical techniques I will be using for my own research/get my name on a publication/get a nice chapter I can write up to apply for an NSF Pre-Doctoral Fellowship to try and double my stipend for the next 4 years.

 

For the most part I have been torn about what I want to do post-PhD. If I went into industry, I would mostly be interested in the R&D side of things. What I feel like is the most likely path for me is to take a post-doctoral position and continue doing research and let that lead me from there. Eventually I want to find my way into a position in academia.. but I don't think its what I want to do my WHOLE career.

 

And I should say, to continue a conversation you all were having earlier, I have nothing against the real-world. Frankly I would probably be more immediately successful in a real-world job than academia because honestly I'm not your prototypical grad student, I by no means get A's easily and I frequently have to struggle to succeed in courses. However I'm a very self-motivated learner and I've found that independent and collaborative research is the best venue for me to show off that side of my personality.

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I know in the sciences a lot of the new grads, particularly bio majors, tend to think there are no jobs out there. There are a lot of jobs but i think they might not know where to look or think they are to good for them and just decide to go straight to grad school. I was a biochem major and worked as a chemist for a couple of years before i decided i wanted to work in hospitals. I was able to save up money to take care of myself while i was taking classes and i'm sure working gave me a leg up when i applied for my training internship. 

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I doubt you would be able to double dip like that (ta and NSF fellowship at the same time).

The fellowship will require you to get approval for outside employment. They won't approve you to be a TA. Think about it -- they are paying you for research. Why would they allow you to spend that same time grading papers?

Or do you know someone who is doing this now?

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