Labor Unions

[jhook]

daegor, are you from Canada? If you are I feel that you don't fully understand how unions work. You have free healthcare, we do not.  In the U.S. healthcare is run like a business. I need my union to protect and fight for my right to be able to afford a doctors visit.

 

I also need an organization to fight for a reasonable pension. I am no fool and I know that I will never make $100,000 a year but why should I suffer?  It's an uphill battle for us.

[¯\_(ツ)_/¯]

daegor, are you from Canada? If you are I feel that you don't fully understand how unions work. You have free healthcare, we do not.  In the U.S. healthcare is run like a business. I need my union to protect and fight for my right to be able to afford a doctors visit.

 

I also need an organization to fight for a reasonable pension. I am no fool and I know that I will never make $100,000 a year but why should I suffer?  It's an uphill battle for us.

 

 

 daegor

• 1,880 posts
• LocationVictoria, BC, Canada

[steventangent]

This is the most balance opinion I've heard so far. It's supposed to be a check and balance system when it works right. Often larger corporations could use the help of a union to essentially act as a mediator. And the threat of unionization is very real motivator. Ultimately I feel that ideally the company should clean up their act and enact an effective a fair business model that develops positive relationships with their own employees. I think it's probably a better thing in the long run if the employee knows and trusts that the company they work for has their best interests in mind, not just the bottom line. It usually creates more loyalty and buy-in to the company goals if this can be accomplished without a union.

I totally agree. Unfortunately, we're not living in a time where there is any currency to loyalty. Unions were created in response to a market demand, not the other way around.

I've thought about what it would take for them to seem "relevant" again, and it's not going to be easy. Especially when a lot of younger workers don't know much about "labor history" and a lot of people feel entitled to what they have. There are a few companies that feel a "moral obligation" to provide for their employees. There are a lot more that would like to, but can't afford to because of prevailing conditions in their industry. Still there are others, like amazon, that just treat people like shit.

[daegor]

daegor, are you from Canada? If you are I feel that you don't fully understand how unions work. You have free healthcare, we do not.  In the U.S. healthcare is run like a business. I need my union to protect and fight for my right to be able to afford a doctors visit.

 

I also need an organization to fight for a reasonable pension. I am no fool and I know that I will never make $100,000 a year but why should I suffer?  It's an uphill battle for us.

 

 

Yeah, I am.  I realize things are different here, especially when it comes to benefits, and if you guys actually read into my posts you'll see I agree with you all (for the most part).  What I don't agree with is blanket generalizations.

 

The mere reason you have those things is because of union influence. If you think that's not true then you're either naive or uneducated. Do your homework.

 

Still disagree.  I work in the private sector, it's rare (in Canada) to have a union in a call centre.  We have what we have where I work because my employer values it's employees, simple as that.  There have been very few examples of unions in this sector and most business who have gone the way of unions have ultimately failed.

 

 

Please, really guys, actually read my longer posts if you're going to argue the point, I don't disagree with unions.  They are just simply not a magical (or even ideal, in many cases) solution.  I actually agree with the majority of the counterpoints people have made to my posts.

[streetwaves]

Yeah, I am.  I realize things are different here, especially when it comes to benefits, and if you guys actually read into my posts you'll see I agree with you all (for the most part).  What I don't agree with is blanket generalizations.

 

 

Still disagree.  I work in the private sector, it's rare (in Canada) to have a union in a call centre.  We have what we have where I work because my employer values it's employees, simple as that.  There have been very few examples of unions in this sector and most business who have gone the way of unions have ultimately failed.

 

 

Please, really guys, actually read my longer posts if you're going to argue the point, I don't disagree with unions.  They are just simply not a magical (or even ideal, in many cases) solution.  I actually agree with the majority of the counterpoints people have made to my posts.

 

Perhaps it's because you live in Canada and are given some of the same benefits, for being a citizen, that unions have to fight for here.

[steventangent]

Unions are paying a heavy price for the sins of the past. Some of them are still even living there. These days, they're going to have to work harder to engage young workers and not sully the relationships with older workers. It's a hard balance to strike, in any case.

It's easy to paint unions with a broad brush. Some of them worked very hard on the side of civil rights. Still others helped perpetuate racism in a lot of places.

As a balance against abuses from employees, and to advocate for the working class, I think they're a good thing. They are the only organized group for people at the lower end of the economic scale with any real political clout...most other interest groups are in favor of industrial or moral causes. I also believe that assaults on unions we're seeing in a lot of places are almost solely politically motivated, by the same people that have a vested interest in discrediting unions as much as possible.

I am in favor of unions, despite the bad, because I see a long term, systematic rolling back of rights for working people in this country. You're seeing all of these places making cuts to worker's comp programs, state OSHA departments, people in the federal government like Eric Cantor coming after overtime again. We're already a nation that has relatively few paid government holidays, relatively little sick time and vacation time, and count your lucky fuckin' stars if you just had a baby and you have any benefit above and beyond FMLA protection.

Maybe these kind of attacks on workers are what is going to make unions relevant again - if at all. I don't want to talk about the merits of what's happening in the fast food industry, but one thing you can't argue is that the sentiment and the frustration felt by those workers that chose to strike are valid.

[daegor]

I guess if you boil everything I'm saying down to one point, it would be that unions shouldn't have to be the answer.

 

A better way to deal with the problem is for employers to smarten the fuck up.  But fail that, they are definitely needed.

[steventangent]

That would be nice. I think, in particular, when you deal with corporations, they don't operate with a conscience. The work to serve investors. People are just line items to a lot of them. Even if you find someone in middle management that sees the value in treating people fairly, they're in this system where "policy" dictates what they can actually do. And the groupthink doesn't allow for it anyway. Nobody has to take responsibility for how the peons are treated.

[daegor]

That would be nice. I think, in particular, when you deal with corporations, they don't operate with a conscience. The work to serve investors. People are just line items to a lot of them. Even if you find someone in middle management that sees the value in treating people fairly, they're in this system where "policy" dictates what they can actually do. And the groupthink doesn't allow for it anyway. Nobody has to take responsibility for how the peons are treated.

 

Hand in hand with my opinions regarding unions go my opinions that corporations are fucking evil.  It dehumanizes everyone involved at every level.  It's all about the "small" (in relation to big name corporations) businesses that are run by a fucking person.  And that person has other people working for them that will call them out when their being shitty.

 

Don't like the corporation you're working for?  Screw the unions, quit and join a better company.  Not possible?  Start your own.  Not possible?  Join/start a union as a last resort.

[steventangent]

I'm not trying to change your mind on the topic, but some people don't really have much say in the matter. A lot of people are in manual labor jobs because it's the only way they can make ends meet. A lot of them are working for bigger companies for the benefits or because it's the only game in town.

I hate wal mart with a passion, but I can't blame someone for working there if it's the biggest employer in town and they have bills to pay, mouths to feed, have to help their parents pay bills, have to get themselves through college, whatever.

Unions exist in the unskilled labor market because there is a demand. Often times those jobs are employing people that are struggling to get by for whatever reason. "You'll just take the shit we'll give you because you can't afford to say no" is not a good situation. And somebody argued with me on this forum before that those positions suck for a reason and people should be pushed out of them. But my own first hand experiences seeing those jobs and what they do to people tells me it's not always that simple.

[GradedOnACurve]

Unions are paying a heavy price for the sins of the past. Some of them are still even living there. These days, they're going to have to work harder to engage young workers and not sully the relationships with older workers. It's a hard balance to strike, in any case.

It's easy to paint unions with a broad brush. Some of them worked very hard on the side of civil rights. Still others helped perpetuate racism in a lot of places.

As a balance against abuses from employees, and to advocate for the working class, I think they're a good thing. They are the only organized group for people at the lower end of the economic scale with any real political clout...most other interest groups are in favor of industrial or moral causes. I also believe that assaults on unions we're seeing in a lot of places are almost solely politically motivated, by the same people that have a vested interest in discrediting unions as much as possible.

I am in favor of unions, despite the bad, because I see a long term, systematic rolling back of rights for working people in this country. You're seeing all of these places making cuts to worker's comp programs, state OSHA departments, people in the federal government like Eric Cantor coming after overtime again. We're already a nation that has relatively few paid government holidays, relatively little sick time and vacation time, and count your lucky fuckin' stars if you just had a baby and you have any benefit above and beyond FMLA protection.

Maybe these kind of attacks on workers are what is going to make unions relevant again - if at all. I don't want to talk about the merits of what's happening in the fast food industry, but one thing you can't argue is that the sentiment and the frustration felt by those workers that chose to strike are valid.

So true about the perpetuated racism. Especially in the skilled labot market at one point. Also didnt Detriot have big issues with integrated housing and factory work? I think suprisingly out of all people that it was George Romney (Mitt's Dad) who marched for integration. As for other thins you mentioned (comp, standards, overtime) i feel like certain people using poor job market and desparation as a reason to cut cut cut. The idea is that "well someone else needs your job anyway." Its almost as if youll see pinkertons working again....

[¯\_(ツ)_/¯]

shame he just ignored my post :\

[daegor]

100% agree

I'm not trying to change your mind on the topic, but some people don't really have much say in the matter. A lot of people are in manual labor jobs because it's the only way they can make ends meet. A lot of them are working for bigger companies for the benefits or because it's the only game in town.

I hate wal mart with a passion, but I can't blame someone for working there if it's the biggest employer in town and they have bills to pay, mouths to feed, have to help their parents pay bills, have to get themselves through college, whatever.

Unions exist in the unskilled labor market because there is a demand. Often times those jobs are employing people that are struggling to get by for whatever reason. "You'll just take the shit we'll give you because you can't afford to say no" is not a good situation. And somebody argued with me on this forum before that those positions suck for a reason and people should be pushed out of them. But my own first hand experiences seeing those jobs and what they do to people tells me it's not always that simple.

[daegor]

I think this is what you're referring to Mike? I agree with everything you're saying here. Never said otherwise.

Unions aren't a crutch, never said that. To think that a union is the only way to stay out of the lower class is a crutch. Personal circumstances will always come into play however and often will force your hand.

good for you, but unions exist where your great work environment does not exist. Unions start BECAUSE employees are over/under worked, have terrible benefits, poor quality of life, and the employer is not listening to their workers.

we have a hospital here in Pittsburgh, UPMC, their employees, the orderlies, janitors, nurse aides, etc requested raises over and over, never really got anything. employees went to the newspapers to complain in op eds, how they cant afford groceries so they go to food banks in other neighborhoods to get enough food to eat, and even a dollar raise would help them out greatly. UPMC makes $2 BILLION a year. you know how they responded? They created a food bank for employees. That same employee wrote back in another op ed saying how big of a slap in the face that was, that the reason they went to other neighborhoods to go to food banks was so their friends, co workres, familes WOULDNT KNOW THEY WERE STRUGGLING (which she said in her first op ed that by writing this she was exposing her struggles). So the SEIU came in and has tried to unionize. UPMC has fought it, fired and intimidated workres to keep the union out. They were just charged with 19 unfair labor practices by the National Labor Relation Board and will have a court date in December with the federal judge.

now, you're telling me that these workers shouldnt need to unionize, shouldnt use that CRUTCH to get a living wage, benefits? That they should just assume their employer will respect their wishes? Maybe that works in Canada, but it doesnt really work in the US.

[steventangent]

Two days ago I got offered a job with a union as a business agent. ...I'm kinda not sure what to do.

[jhook]

I was voted onto the negotiating team the other day. This is my first time doing this so I am pretty excited about it. I am also attending steward training and a big conference next month. BROTHERHOOD!

[jhook]

Two days ago I got offered a job with a union as a business agent. ...I'm kinda not sure what to do.

Take the job?

[¯\_(ツ)_/¯]

That's awesome congrats man!! I'm actually about to interview for a employee relations job right now

[steventangent]

I was voted onto the negotiating team the other day. This is my first time doing this so I am pretty excited about it. I am also attending steward training and a big conference next month. BROTHERHOOD!

 

I did that once. I'm actually hoping to be involved with the next one, if I'm still with the company, because I know a lot more and we should be in a more favorable position. Good luck!

 

I am now officially an assistant union rep. Part time, limited hours. My CBA says that I can leave my unit for up to one year for employment by the union, so I don't really have much to lose if they offer to make this a full-time gig. It's just a lot of stress, and I'm not too jazzed about working as much as I'm going to be for the next few months. But fuck, I need the money. And I've learned a whole lot of useful stuff so far.

 

I can't help but feel a little bit like being a union rep would be a dead-end job. No worse than my current one, I guess. But I think it comes with the added liability of tainting any future job opportunities that might come my way. I know that it's all in how you package stuff like that, but it's hard not to imagine the prejudice that future employers might have if they think I'm some rabble-rousing union prick.

[¯\_(ツ)_/¯]

I did that once. I'm actually hoping to be involved with the next one, if I'm still with the company, because I know a lot more and we should be in a more favorable position. Good luck!

 

I am now officially an assistant union rep. Part time, limited hours. My CBA says that I can leave my unit for up to one year for employment by the union, so I don't really have much to lose if they offer to make this a full-time gig. It's just a lot of stress, and I'm not too jazzed about working as much as I'm going to be for the next few months. But fuck, I need the money. And I've learned a whole lot of useful stuff so far.

 

I can't help but feel a little bit like being a union rep would be a dead-end job. No worse than my current one, I guess. But I think it comes with the added liability of tainting any future job opportunities that might come my way. I know that it's all in how you package stuff like that, but it's hard not to imagine the prejudice that future employers might have if they think I'm some rabble-rousing union prick.

 

Congrats!!!

[steventangent]

Thanks. Right now 75% of my job is convincing people to sign up to contribute to our PAC and charitable foundation through payroll deductions. That part is not fun at all, but they expect me to get a certain number every month. It's kind of their test of how you work independently.

Today is my day off from my regular job, so I'm getting ready to head out for my weekly visit with the rank and file.

[jhook]

So I had my big conference. I ended up leading a workshop and speaking in front of the board about working with young people and getting them involved with the union. I have also been elected to my E-board. How is everyone else's union life doing?

[thebiglebowski]

I joined the AFGE in June but I think I'm going to bail. They clearly have no power to do anything in response to Congressional action except send emails and picket.

[steventangent]

I actually had to put my idealism down the other day. Took him behind the barn and slit his throat with a pocketknife.

He's in a better place now. I am not.

[¯\_(ツ)_/¯]

I joined the AFGE in June but I think I'm going to bail. They clearly have no power to do anything in response to Congressional action except send emails and picket.

 

thats because government employees are not allowed to go on strike.  its how Reagan fired everyone who was an air traffic controller in 1981 for going on Strike.  they're not given the full use of bargaining rights that private sector employees have, even wages if im not mistaken, cant be bargained.  just work condition and protection from termination and other various benefits.