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Vegetarian / Vegan Foods Thread


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I've been vegetarian for 14+ years. I grew up in a household that was as carnivore as it gets. Turkey Double Bacon from Subway. Monster Burger from Hardees. My diet was exclusively meat with occasionally mixing in some potatoes. I gave up meat when I realized the contridiction eating meat created.

I wouldnt' have what it took to kill and butcher an animal myself so why am I eating meat. These days the enviornmental aspects of vegetarian / vegan diets would probably force me into a vegetarian diet if I wasn't already.

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I've been vegetarian for 14+ years. I grew up in a household that was as carnivore as it gets. Turkey Double Bacon from Subway. Monster Burger from Hardees. My diet was exclusively meat with occasionally mixing in some potatoes. I gave up meat when I realized the contridiction eating meat created.

I wouldnt' have what it took to kill and butcher an animal myself so why am I eating meat. These days the enviornmental aspects of vegetarian / vegan diets would probably force me into a vegetarian diet if I wasn't already.

I liked your whole post because I had too, but 80% of that Like was for the Hardees Monster Burger.

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Another question -- the way I understand the definitions a veggie eats animal products but no meat (ie, nothing dies to make their dinner but the rest is ok) and a vegan won't eat any animal products.

Why go vegan over veggie, assuming you have access to ethically farmed, natural dairy products? Seems like they are available pretty much everywhere if you look for them. Tons of tasty foods you can include with milk and in the mix (cheese pizza, ice cream, etc). And I don't see how taking milk from a cow is really immoral. A milk cow could really live a great life. No predators like in nature, a natural death, arguably a better existance than anything nature would provide. Seems like a win-win (between human and animal) to me. Why don't vegans support this? I'm just curious.

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It's not natural to consume milk. Milk is super food, or baby food, packed with the nutrients required for babies. When a woman gives birth to a child, she lactates until her child is weaned, and then she stops. The same goes for cows. In order for them to give milk, they must be pregnant first. As a result, they are forcefully impregnated and injected hormones ( most cows still are ), and then once they give birth, they take the child away from her immediately and begin to milk the cow.

Milking the cow itself is a painful process, as the cows are hooked up to a machine and milked for hours of the day. Going on what I said earlier, a cow will give milk until it's calf is weaned. If the calf keeps getting milk, it'll keep giving. When you hook up the cow to a machine, it keeps giving milk. Eventually the milk gets bad and they impregnate the cow again.

Milk isn't natural to drink past being weaned. 67% of the world is some sort of lactose intolerant, which means they can't digest the lactose found in milk. (Lactose Tolerant milk is milk without this sugar, in case ya were curious!). No other animal drinks milk past being weaned, and definitely none from another species. It makes no sense to drink it!

Milk itself is healthy for a child, but not an adult. They say the high levels of protein in milk actually prevent the calcium from being absorbed, hence, causing osteoporosis. oh the irony.

A female cow in the wild is argued to live anywhere from 10-20 years, but in a dairy farm, they only live for 3 or 4 years. They are worked so hard that they just die. Female cow is chopped up for meat in soups and for pet food.

I have so much trouble explaining to people why vegans don't do dairy, or don't do honey, or wear leather, or use down jackets, so my new response is simply: I don't consume or use animal product or by product, no matter what it is. So why don't I eat honey? Because it comes from a bee and a bee is an animal.

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Another question -- the way I understand the definitions a veggie eats animal products but no meat (ie, nothing dies to make their dinner but the rest is ok) and a vegan won't eat any animal products.

Why go vegan over veggie, assuming you have access to ethically farmed, natural dairy products? Seems like they are available pretty much everywhere if you look for them. Tons of tasty foods you can include with milk and in the mix (cheese pizza, ice cream, etc). And I don't see how taking milk from a cow is really immoral. A milk cow could really live a great life. No predators like in nature, a natural death, arguably a better existance than anything nature would provide. Seems like a win-win (between human and animal) to me. Why don't vegans support this? I'm just curious.

Jacob touched on most of it, but lets assume a really small scale humane farm, which is pretty common by me. Now, I can't speak for anyone else but as someone who eats meat occasionally but eschews dairy I just find it weird. While dairy cows can live relatively happy lives they still must be impregnated annually, and in many cases, are separated from their calves after. I think every animal has a maternal instinct and I'd wager the cows don't care for that arrangement. Ultimately I think dairy cows probably have a more stressful life than beef for slaughter, primarily due to longevity.

If you own an animal and happen to get some milk on as a by-product to the natural cycle, so be it. But that isn't really scalable. My two cents.

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Well forgetting honey (not saying honey doesn't have valid questions, but staying on milk), some of what you said overlooks my language of "ethically farmed, natural dairy products". I understand there is a lot in the milk producing industry to keep costs down that a vegan will not agree with. Assuming you had the cows and the land, could you produce milk that you agree with? Could you keep the calves with the mother, take the excess milk as gently as a calf would, let them be impregnated naturally, no hormones or chemicals? If this was available to you, would you support it?

I agree with you that we are the only species of animal that drinks milk after childhood. We are also the only species of animal with playstation 3s. I'll give you "unnatural" but I'm not equating that to "wrong".

And lastly, I would be interested to see scientific evidence that suggests that a reasonable amount (ie, the daily allowance on the food pyramid) of milk is bad for you. Not milk with hormones and antibiotics, just plain old milk. If you can produce it I will read with an open mind.

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Jefferson,

a ton of ethical farming practices aren't "scalable". A dude in this thread said he pays $9 a dozen for eggs. I stopped at the grocery store on my way home and got the regular ones for $1.50.

If people are willing to pay 6 times the normal price, I wonder if there is a way to ethically farm milk. Niche - market for veggies concerned with the ethical treatment of animals, maybe. But when there is demand I think people will find a way. Or maybe not. Just trying to fully understand the position.

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By the way, I know you aren't going to agree with this, but I just read this book:

http://www.amazon.com/Starting-Strength-3rd-Mark-Rippetoe/dp/0982522738/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1355270221&sr=8-1&keywords=starting+strength

Word for word what it says:

"One of the best ways to move in the direction of these numbers is to drink a gallon of milk a day, most especially if weight-gain is a primary concern. A gallon of milk per day, added to the regular diet at intervals throughout the day, will put weight on any skinny kid. Really. The problem is getting them to do it. ..... Milk works because it is easy, it is available, it doesn't need any preparation, and it has all the components necessary for growing mammals, which your trainees most definitely are. There also seems to be something special about milk that the equivalent amount of calories, protein, fat, and carbs can't duplicate in terms of growth enhancement. It may be the fact that milk has been shown to have very high levels of insulin-like growth factor 1 (IGF-1), a peptide hormone that has been shown to have a tenuous relationship to accelerated growth in mammals. But that research is far from conclusive; suffice to say that people who drink lots of milk during their novice phase get bigger and strong than people who don't. This time proven method works for everybody that can digest milk ...."

Just pointing out the irony that you say milk is unhealthy and this guy (a former olympic strength coach) is suggesting beginners drink a gallon a day.

I think part of it comes down to what is "healthy". By the doctor's charts, someone who is 6 foot 220 pounds is "overweight". They might be under 10% bodyfat though and all muscle. Still, big dudes tend to die earlier. So if "healthy" is only equated to average life expectancy, then milk (and all animal products) are probably bad for you. There are other definitions of "healthy" though.

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Couple things from me if you're curious:

Regarding the scalability of ethical practices and if I would reconsider should all of the criteria you laid out be met. Sure, maybe. Probably sometimes. I'm not vegan, nor do I claim to be, so for me I just try to structure my diet and intake that doesn't require an sacrifice from an animal (not in the literal, sort of biblical sense) every time I have a meal. And for me, the sacrifice from a dairy cow is prolonged relative to a slaughter animal. I realize that is different ethical position from others, but it is my opinion. The issues usually arise as you attempt to scale the practice to make a viable business.

I won't argue that milk is a great way to put on weight (good or bad) but the long-term health benefits of dairy are dubious. So sure, if you define health as building muscle, or lifting heavy things sometime soon, as healthy then absolutely. Other studies will point out links between long-term dairy consumption and cancer rates and calcium deficiencies. Cardiovascular disease and other health risks have also been linked to dairy consumption. I'd say by most traditional metrics it wouldn't be considered "healthy", but I totally buy why someone like the strength coach would recommend a high consumption if it produces results. And shit, if you don't have any ethical objections, go for it I guess.

I don't give a shit what people eat really, and I don't have a lot to say about your diet or how it effects building of muscle, frankly I don't know enough. If it works for you and you enjoy it, I'm not going to try and stop you. I'm not about changing peoples diets, I just want people to stop and think about what they are putting in their body and moderate the bad. Sounds like you're doing that. I've got nothing further.

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Thats a balanced approach and I can respect it.

The only part I question the links between dairy and cancer or heart disease. I would like to see results from a well planned scientific experiment from a reputable university or health group before I believe this. The same argument that I posted earlier in the thread about saturated fat in the diet can be made here -- how do you determine the cause of cancer? Does milk cause it or are vegans generally healthier than the average, omnivorous human being (smoking and drinking less, exercising more, carrying less body fat, eating less or no fast food), thus when you look for patterns in the general population you see that people who don't eat dairy are less likely to get cancer?

You could even take it to the extreme and say that people who become vegans are, in general, more likely to have less stress in their lives, come from the middle or upper class, and other socio-economic factors that contribute to heart disease. It's a more tenuous link but possible.

You see this all the time with the media trying to shock you into ratings -- "New study shows that eating lots of onions (or any number of a thousand things) reduces your risk of cancer. Tune in at 6." Eggs are good, eggs are bad, eggs are good, eggs are bad. No one agrees on the healthiest diet because no one knows -- they just find tenuous links that they sell to the public because that is their job. Just stay balanced and keep the body fat down (high body fat being the result of an imbalance in nutrition or exercise). The rest is out of your hands.

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Thats a balanced approach and I can respect it.

The only part I question the links between dairy and cancer or heart disease. I would like to see results from a well planned scientific experiment from a reputable university or health group before I believe this. The same argument that I posted earlier in the thread about saturated fat in the diet can be made here -- how do you determine the cause of cancer? Does milk cause it or are vegans generally healthier than the average, omnivorous human being (smoking and drinking less, exercising more, carrying less body fat, eating less or no fast food), thus when you look for patterns in the general population you see that people who don't eat dairy are less likely to get cancer?

You could even take it to the extreme and say that people who become vegans are, in general, more likely to have less stress in their lives, come from the middle or upper class, and other socio-economic factors that contribute to heart disease. It's a more tenuous link but possible.

You see this all the time with the media trying to shock you into ratings -- "New study shows that eating lots of onions (or any number of a thousand things) reduces your risk of cancer. Tune in at 6." Eggs are good, eggs are bad, eggs are good, eggs are bad. No one agrees on the healthiest diet because no one knows -- they just find tenuous links that they sell to the public because that is their job. Just stay balanced and keep the body fat down (high body fat being the result of an imbalance in nutrition or exercise). The rest is out of your hands.

http://www.amazon.com/China-Study-Comprehensive-Nutrition-Implications/dp/1932100660

Not sure if you've ever heard of the China Study done by Colin Campbell, but it is the largest study ever done examining the relationship between nutrition and health. In China, certain regions are "confined" to their local diet and conditions for their entire lifetime, so there is stable data and not as many variables to worry about. I would say that it's definitely worth checking out. He is a main contributor in the Forks Over Knives movie as well.

And lastly, I would be interested to see scientific evidence that suggests that a reasonable amount (ie, the daily allowance on the food pyramid) of milk is bad for you. Not milk with hormones and antibiotics, just plain old milk. If you can produce it I will read with an open mind.

http://www.amazon.com/Vegan-Ethics-Eating-Erik-Marcus/dp/0935526870

I just got done reading this book for my presentation and I wish I could copy and paste a chapter out of this book entitled "The Perfect Food Isn't". To sort of sum up: Fat content (in 2% milk fat is 34% of the calories), evidence linking milk protein to insulin-dependent diabetes, digestive problems/allergies. And what Jacob said: high protein diets can actually cause bone loss (i.e. milk boosts protein intake).

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Another thing to think about is something called "caloric density". This is what contributes to the weight loss/energy increase. "Vegan foods" have a low caloric density while animal-derived foods have a high caloric density. This means that when you fill up on animal foods, that you reach your daily calorie limit (around 2500 calories on average) before your hunger is satisfied.

http://www.happyhealthylonglife.com/.a/6a00e54fc8012e8833017c3185242f970b-500wi

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I'm open to listening but I continue to stick to my claims that the majority of research into diet is centered on correlation, not causation. The word "correlated" is all over the wiki for that China Study book. I guarantee you that if I had the time I could find books and articles that refute 90% of that authors claims, maybe more. A common one would be that people who eat a lot of fish have lower cholesterol and heart disease (omega 3s).

I mean, I'm not putting a ton of effort into this argument but isn't it possible that the difference in heart disease and cholesterol between the counties in that study are based on animal eaters being fatter on average? Does he control for weight and body fat in his claims? Being fat definitely predisposes you to heart disease. No one would argue. The part I am skeptical of is whether eating meat causes heart disease or being fat does (which is correlated with eating meat, but it doesn't necessarily make you fat). I can't say more without reading it I guess.

And I'm not supporting this book but using it as a point that you can find claims in print that are outright contradictory. This lady claims a no carb diet cured her breast cancer in two weeks and cured her son of diabetes (something that The China Study claims, is best handled by not eating meat). I'm a fan of the keto diet and even I think that sounds kooky. Just using it as an example that just cause you read it in a book, doesn't mean it is fact. Every claim should be challenged.

http://www.amazon.com/The-Cantin-Ketogenic-Diet-Diabetes/dp/1477567593/ref=sr_1_12?ie=UTF8&qid=1355286643&sr=8-12&keywords=ketogenic+diet

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Another thing to think about is something called "caloric density". This is what contributes to the weight loss/energy increase. "Vegan foods" have a low caloric density while animal-derived foods have a high caloric density. This means that when you fill up on animal foods, that you reach your daily calorie limit (around 2500 calories on average) before your hunger is satisfied.

http://www.happyheal...5242f970b-500wi

Zero argument. I would only add that even though the majority of Americans are overweight and flabby, all are not. A vegan diet is a great thing for someone looking to go from flab to thin, because a caloric deficit is easier for some on low density foods. I wouldn't assume that is everyone's body goal though.

Also, some have found it easier to lose weight on ketogenic diets. I have. The theory behind those is that by making fat your primary source of calories, you are starting your bodies ketogenic processes (ie, turning fat into fuel). Appetite is suppressed on a keto diet. Then there is the Glycemic Index type theories.

The only rule that is 100% in weight loss is that you have to burn more than you take in. There are many paths to that end point. I could lose weight on nothing but snickers bars and ice cream if I wanted to (although I would be severely lacking in vitamins and minerals).

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Probably the most universal theory in nutrition is that sugar is bad for you. Anyone ever seen anyone claim a positive benefit to it? They might claim fruit is good because of fiber, nutrients, etc that outweighs the sugar but sugar itself seems to be considered a negative to everyone.

I don't eat fruit and I try and stay away from high sugar veggies (corn, for example). Focus mostly on broccoli, lettuce, avocado, green peppers -- pretty much only green plants. I do eat a good quantity of the ones I listed above though.

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I'm open to listening but I continue to stick to my claims that the majority of research into diet is centered on correlation, not causation. The word "correlated" is all over the wiki for that China Study book. I guarantee you that if I had the time I could find books and articles that refute 90% of that authors claims, maybe more. A common one would be that people who eat a lot of fish have lower cholesterol and heart disease (omega 3s).

I mean, I'm not putting a ton of effort into this argument but isn't it possible that the difference in heart disease and cholesterol between the counties in that study are based on animal eaters being fatter on average? Does he control for weight and body fat in his claims? Being fat definitely predisposes you to heart disease. No one would argue. The part I am skeptical of is whether eating meat causes heart disease or being fat does (which is correlated with eating meat, but it doesn't necessarily make you fat). I can't say more without reading it I guess.

And I'm not supporting this book but using it as a point that you can find claims in print that are outright contradictory. This lady claims a no carb diet cured her breast cancer in two weeks and cured her son of diabetes (something that The China Study claims, is best handled by not eating meat). I'm a fan of the keto diet and even I think that sounds kooky. Just using it as an example that just cause you read it in a book, doesn't mean it is fact. Every claim should be challenged.

http://www.amazon.co...=ketogenic diet

That's definitely true, and I don't mean to claim that anything in there is fact or proves one point of view. I thought I'd point it out because that is (in my experience) a highly referenced study for vegans to point to in backing up there diet.

As for as that keto diet and other diets, I really haven't looked into those a whole lot. For the most part, and even now, I became vegan because of animals rights/ethical issues, and the health aspect was sort of an afterthought. I did consider going into dietetics for a while though so you have peaked my interest with what you said - thought thats not a good thing around finals time because I need sleep! ;) Recently I have been paying a lot more attention to what my body really needs now that I've sort of "stabilized"(?) after being on a vegan diet for about 6 months now.

Anyways, it is nice to see the different perspectives on this from everyone here.

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Cool man. Yeah, I like discussing this stuff too or I would have just let it go.

By the way, what school in MI? I'm getting my doctorate from Wayne in a couple months.

I actually go to EMU. It's my first year here, transferred from a community college in Kzoo. I'm actually excited to go back home for winter break now (finals this week) because there's a vegan place over there that I just found out about that has vegan pancakes (I used to go to Ihop with my girlfriend all the time haha).

Like I was saying before, I've really been putting a lot of effort into trying to make sure I'm getting the right stuff to maintain an ideal weight and everything, though I definitely am lighter now and my mom/gf tell me my face is a lot more "sunken in". Kinda worried me that I wasn't doing it right. I've done P90-X before and did Insanity for a while before school started, definitely thinking about getting back into Insanity after finals though.

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You guys make me feel morbidly obese when you guys are around 130-150 lol I'm sitting at around 255-260 :P

As for how I gain weight, it beats me.... I kind of keep a cal tab in the back of my head when I eat. Also I'm big on portion control, the main factor probably comes from protein shakes and my undying hatred of cottage cheese ( that I force myself to eat.)

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You guys make me feel morbidly obese when you guys are around 130-150 lol I'm sitting at around 255-260 :P

As for how I gain weight, it beats me.... I kind of keep a cal tab in the back of my head when I eat. Also I'm big on portion control, the main factor probably comes from protein shakes and my undying hatred of cottage cheese ( that I force myself to eat.)

yeah i'm around 135-140 but i'm like 5'7". Like I said before, gonna try to put on some more muscle after finals.

Also, I just wanted you to know that your signature is what inspired me to come out of the closet on the boards with my passionate love for Taylor Swift :D

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Probably the most universal theory in nutrition is that sugar is bad for you. Anyone ever seen anyone claim a positive benefit to it? They might claim fruit is good because of fiber, nutrients, etc that outweighs the sugar but sugar itself seems to be considered a negative to everyone.

I don't eat fruit and I try and stay away from high sugar veggies (corn, for example). Focus mostly on broccoli, lettuce, avocado, green peppers -- pretty much only green plants. I do eat a good quantity of the ones I listed above though.

Regarding sugar and fruit, I hope you're avoiding fruit because you don't like it and not because it has sugar in it. There is a huge difference between cane sugar, refined sugar, and natural sugar. Sugar is essential to human life, and natural sugars found in fruits and vegetables are completely healthy for you. I can't imagine a situation where too much fruit in the diet caused negative side effects due to the excess sugar.

You didn't mention it, but I hear tons of people all of the time saying how they don't eat coconut or avocado or nuts because of its high fat content. It's natural fat, and it's healthy fat, and therefore it is okay. I guess the way I've always looked at life was if it is a fruit, vegetable, legume or nut, it is healthy for you. Whether or not it's true, it HAS been scientifically proven that eating these food groups can increase your life.

My grandmother hasn't had "sugar" in over 40 years, but she definitely still eats fruit. I googled unhealthy fruits and nuts for giggles, and found nothing. Literally, someone said french fries............

I personally would love to keep talking about stuff like this, I really like to, so fire me with questions!

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yeah i'm around 135-140 but i'm like 5'7". Like I said before, gonna try to put on some more muscle after finals.

Also, I just wanted you to know that your signature is what inspired me to come out of the closet on the boards with my passionate love for Taylor Swift :D

ahaha glad I could be of service, I had to change my sig because T. Sizzle album dropped before my other crush Ke$ha's did. Now I find my self unable to sleep at night because I do not know who I love more :(

As for my room mate he is also around that height & weight. We are ironic because he is 150lbs at 5'7" and hates vegetables with a passion and I stand at 6'6" 255lbs and only eat vegatbles.

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Smashed, I checked your record list. Little bit more "emo" than me but if you like Gaslight, maybe I'll meet ya next time they come through Detroit. Seen them everytime since '07 when they were the first opener at a small club in Hamtramck called Smalls.

Hipster, cottage cheese is awesome! I could eat it all day. I mix whole flaxseeds in with it to give it some crunch. Super healthy too. They are basically tiny little nuggets of omega 3s.

Jake, I think you understand that I am not equating eating an apple to chugging a package of pixy sticks (as I used to do when I was 10). Sugar may be essential to the body's processes, but it is not an essential part of the diet. You can live just fine on complex carbs, protein, and fat. If you want an example of a diet which recommends fruits be eaten sparingly and some not at all because of their sugar, wiki the glycemic index. And avocados are the bomb. I purposely eat them because of their fat. And as far as I know, there are no nutrients you can get from fruit that you can't get from veggies, without the sugar (although they don't taste as good). So I just choose to skip the fruit and just get a couple good servings of veggies a day.

This is just my own theory but I really think the most important factor in diet is not eating high amounts carbs and fat together. When you eat a cheeseburger and french fries (although I might be the only person in this thread who does so), the blood sugar spikes, the carbs get used and some stored, and the fats in the beef get stored in the body as human fat. Our bodies are programmed through evolution to use energy sources in this order: carbs -> fats -> protein. When you skip the fries and bun, your body has no choice but to use fat as its fuel, so the animal fats get turned into energy. When you just eat plants with a reasonable amount of carbs from bread and potatoes, there aren't enough leftover calories to store anything.

Many different ways to get to the same end.

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my local newspaper just did an article on the beef industry. they did a year long study and came up with this:

 

http://www.kansascity.com/beef/

 

pretty ballsy being in the middle of big beef area.

 

not sure if its a decent or informative article, havent read yet, just thought id share.

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