Paincakes Posted November 30, 2015 Share Posted November 30, 2015 I recently got my first turntable setup, and am a little underwhelmed by the sound quality, mainly due to the overall EQ being noticeably mid-heavy (like a bad FM radio). Setup: Pro-Ject Debut Carbon Esprit Turntable Ortofon 2M Blue Musical Fidelity - V90-LPS MM/MC Phono Preamp Denon AVR-1713 Pioneer SP-BS22-LR My turntable is on a level surface, I swapped the stock Ortofon 2M Red stylus with a Blue one (seems to be seated right), and the Phono Preamp is set to "MM". I originally set the tracking force to 1.8g, per the stylus manual, but changed it to 2.0g per a recommendation on a forum thread I read). Anti-skate was set to the middle notch, but I changed it to the 3rd notch after changing the tracking force, per the Pro-ject Manual. I've also been experimenting with the tracking force, per this blog, but so far I have yet to strike gold. The only thing I'm not 100% sure of is the cart alignment. I used the Pro-Ject paper protractor and the alignment seems ok (though I'l admit, due to the geometry of the Ortofon cart, I'm not sure exactly what needs to line up with what... so there's that). Per the Pro-Ject manual, the alignment is said to be set at the factory, so I didn't mess with it, even after changing the stylus. Any thoughts? I'm not sure if my expectations are unrealistically high, or if there is something wrong with my setup (maybe the cart alignment?). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allenh Posted November 30, 2015 Share Posted November 30, 2015 Have you got the speakers placed correctly and what is the size of the room? you might want to revisit the distances between you and the speakers, between the speakers, from the walls to the speakers, from the speakers to the HiFi itself and how and where they are sited. It's hard to know without actually hearing it and it's difficult to see for sure because of the angle of the 2nd photo but the alignment looks fine. Investing in a scale to measure your tracking force might be worthwhile as the scale on the weight isn't always that accurate but things like VTA (which you can't adjust on that table) and tracking angle will have more sonic effect unless you are running particularly light or particularly heavy so it's unlikely to be turntable alignment related to that degree Also what is it like from a CD or other digital audio though? If it's sounds as bad with CD, the speakers are correctly placed and everything on the turntable is correctly set up then the front end, turntable, cartridge and phono stage are all of a pretty good standard and I haven't heard the speakers but I have heard good things about them so my instinct is your limiting factor is the AV receiver, it's rather outclassed by the components in front of it and AV receivers in general are rarely very good at HiFi until you get a good way up the food chain but it should at least be reasonable, again I haven't heard that particular Denon but my own experience with AV receivers has been that all of them around that price point were decidedly average when it came to music but all were quite capable when it comes to film audio, to get one that did a half decent job at audio I had to go way up the range of the one I bought and with some makers you had to go a very long way up the range. Paincakes 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paincakes Posted November 30, 2015 Author Share Posted November 30, 2015 Have you got the speakers placed correctly and what is the size of the room? you might want to revisit the distances between you and the speakers, between the speakers, from the walls to the speakers, from the speakers to the HiFi itself and how and where they are sited. It's hard to know without actually hearing it and it's difficult to see for sure because of the angle of the 2nd photo but the alignment looks fine. Investing in a scale to measure your tracking force might be worthwhile as the scale on the weight isn't always that accurate but things like VTA (which you can't adjust on that table) and tracking angle will have more sonic effect unless you are running particularly light or particularly heavy so it's unlikely to be turntable alignment related to that degree Also what is it like from a CD or other digital audio though? If it's sounds as bad with CD, the speakers are correctly placed and everything on the turntable is correctly set up then the front end, turntable, cartridge and phono stage are all of a pretty good standard and I haven't heard the speakers but I have heard good things about them so my instinct is your limiting factor is the AV receiver, it's rather outclassed by the components in front of it and AV receivers in general are rarely very good at HiFi until you get a good way up the food chain but it should at least be reasonable, again I haven't heard that particular Denon but my own experience with AV receivers has been that all of them around that price point were decidedly average when it came to music but all were quite capable when it comes to film audio, to get one that did a half decent job at audio I had to go way up the range of the one I bought and with some makers you had to go a very long way up the range. I have been using my Denon AVR with those speakers for years as my Home Theater setup, and the sound quality is excellent when listening to digital sources (HDMI), both movies and music. Perhaps there is an issue with the receiver's analog inputs? Thank for your reply. I'll try to hookup the TT/Preamp to my PC's Audio interface to record some sound samples. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brody Posted November 30, 2015 Share Posted November 30, 2015 Do u mean u increased tracking force from 1.8g to 2.0g? Did u verify with a scale? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 30, 2015 Share Posted November 30, 2015 Did the red stylus sound ok? Could be a bad stylus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paincakes Posted November 30, 2015 Author Share Posted November 30, 2015 Do u mean u increased tracking force from 1.8g to 2.0g? Did u verify with a scale? Yes 1.8g to 2.0g, sorry. I did not verify with a scale. Did the red stylus sound ok? Could be a bad stylus. It actually sounded worse :/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allenh Posted November 30, 2015 Share Posted November 30, 2015 I have been using my Denon AVR with those speakers for years as my Home Theater setup, and the sound quality is excellent when listening to digital sources (HDMI), both movies and music. Perhaps there is an issue with the receiver's analog inputs? Thank for your reply. I'll try to hookup the TT/Preamp to my PC's Audio interface to record some sound samples. If it's fine with digital then that's a pretty fair assumption. As I say equipment wise there is very little wrong with your TT, Cartridge or phono stage This has always generally been the issue with them in that the analogue sources are just an afterthought. It's primary use will be for digital Home Theatre as that is what it was designed for and if the manufacturer want's to keep costs down whilst still giving performance in the areas most will use it for then doing so in the analogue stages usually works fine for them. Paincakes 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allenh Posted November 30, 2015 Share Posted November 30, 2015 It actually sounded worse :/ The blue is quite a sonic upgrade from the red. How long did you run each for? They do need to break in but it should start off good and get better rather than start off bad. Paincakes 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paincakes Posted November 30, 2015 Author Share Posted November 30, 2015 The blue is quite a sonic upgrade from the red. How long did you run each for? They do need to break in but it should start off good and get better rather than start off bad. I used the red for 2-3 hours. The blue has been in use for about 15 hours. I also had some distracting sibilance, but this seems to be dissipating over time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allenh Posted November 30, 2015 Share Posted November 30, 2015 I'll try to hookup the TT/Preamp to my PC's Audio interface to record some sound samples. You can just line in from your phono stage as it's line level the same as the PC input. I run a turntable into my PC all the time. You can also run from the tape out on your amp if it has one straight into the PC line in as well, again same signal level. It would be interesting to do a comparison directly from the soundcard with the line level output from the amplifier. Paincakes 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allenh Posted November 30, 2015 Share Posted November 30, 2015 I used the red for 2-3 hours. The blue has been in use for about 15 hours. I also had some distracting sibilance, but this seems to be dissipating over time. It takes a good few hours more than that but it should at least start of sounding nice. The sibilance is quite common with the red and usually the lack of it is the first difference people notice with the blue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brody Posted November 30, 2015 Share Posted November 30, 2015 did u balance the tonearm? If not the tracking weight scale won't be a accurate. It may not be accurate either way. I'd recommend getting a cheap scale: Shure SFG-2 Stylus Tracking Force Gauge https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00006I5SD/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_awd_vpkxwbZKFVNZ5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paincakes Posted November 30, 2015 Author Share Posted November 30, 2015 did u balance the tonearm? If not the tracking weight scale won't be a accurate. It may not be accurate either way. I'd recommend getting a cheap scale: Shure SFG-2 Stylus Tracking Force Gauge https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00006I5SD/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_awd_vpkxwbZKFVNZ5 I balanced it per the TT's manual. I'm picking up the Shure gauge you listed to double check. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xxmartinxx Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 Which input are you plugged into on the Denon? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paincakes Posted December 1, 2015 Author Share Posted December 1, 2015 Which input are you plugged into on the Denon? There are 2 analog inputs on the AVR 1713. One labeled CBL/SAT, and one labeled DVD. I've tried both, and they more or less sound the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paincakes Posted December 1, 2015 Author Share Posted December 1, 2015 Update: Using headphones plugged into my receiver, and using a "flat EQ" preset, the music from my turntable sounds pretty good (rich, full, sound overall). I'm a bit relieved as it appears my gear seems to be working correctly... right? Still a bit strange that digital music sounds fine, while records have more mids. I can live with it though, and will think about upgrading the speakers once my wallet recovers >< Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allenh Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 Good to hear. You might want to look at the amp before the speakers though. For more musicality in an AV amp I can vouch for Yamaha well certainly the mid to high range ones and avoid Onkyo Paincakes 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tardcore Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 Update: Using headphones plugged into my receiver, and using a "flat EQ" preset, the music from my turntable sounds pretty good (rich, full, sound overall). I'm a bit relieved as it appears my gear seems to be working correctly... right? Still a bit strange that digital music sounds fine, while records have more mids. I can live with it though, and will think about upgrading the speakers once my wallet recovers >< not entirely surprising. your receiver may be compensating for mids that tend to go missing in low quality digital music. Most receivers have some kind of direct/pure mode that bypasses equalization. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allenh Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 Looks like there is a pure mode that says it plays the source directly and turns all the eq and associated electronics off and there is also stereo mode but it looks like you can still have eq and other electronics effects in play with this mode. Press the pure button on the remote and see what it sounds like then Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paincakes Posted December 2, 2015 Author Share Posted December 2, 2015 Looks like there is a pure mode that says it plays the source directly and turns all the eq and associated electronics off and there is also stereo mode but it looks like you can still have eq and other electronics effects in play with this mode. Press the pure button on the remote and see what it sounds like then With headphones, Pure sounds better. Through speakers, "Stereo" sounds better. Which makes sense, since the receiver is applying the room-compensated EQ configured by the "odyssey" process. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xxmartinxx Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 This is why using a surround sound receiver is a bad idea for vinyl. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paincakes Posted December 12, 2015 Author Share Posted December 12, 2015 I've broken-in my stylus a bit more, and overall am now very happy with the sound quality. To sum up, the issue I experienced was actually a combination of the stylus being new, mediocre quality pressings of some records, and to some extent, my speakers. I found some records that sound absolutely fantastic, and even more so when listening through the headphones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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