Cartridge & Phono Pre-Advice

[drewvandal]

I am finally about to order my VPI Scout which will be a huge upgrade from my Dennon.   With this purchase I also now need a phono pre as I was using the built in one on my Dennon.  I also have no idea where to start with a Cart.  I'm not looking for a perfect stereofile system, I just want a bad ass home stereo in my living room.

 

I was recommended a 2M Blue or Bronze depending on how much I wanted to spend and was also suggested the Rega Aria for my Phono Pre.  Reviews for all seem great but anyway that can shed some light would be appreciated.

 

My amp is a Music Fidelity M3i and my speakers are B&W CM8R's. 

Edited November 11, 2016 by drewvandal

[allenh]

11 minutes ago, drewvandal said:

I am finally about to order my VPI Scout which will be a huge upgrade from my Dennon.   With this purchase I also now need a phono pre as I was using the built in one on my Dennon.  I also have no idea where to start with a Cart.  I'm not looking for a perfect stereofile system, I just want a bad ass home stereo in my living room.

 

I was recommended a 2M Blue or Bronze depending on how much I wanted to spend and was also suggested the Rega Aria for my Phono Pre.  Reviews for all seem great but anyway that can shed some light would be appreciated.

 

My amp is a Music Fidelity M3i and my speakers are B&W CM8R's. 

If your amp is MF then I would suggest using a MF phono stage. Obviously you need to listen to one to see if you agree but TBH the MF XL phono stages have been my go to units for years and make even more sense when used with a MF amplifier.

 

Cart wise at that level don't even bother with MM go straight to low output MC, the rest of the system will more than cope. 

[drewvandal]

14 minutes ago, allenh said:

If your amp is MF then I would suggest using a MF phono stage. Obviously you need to listen to one to see if you agree but TBH the MF XL phono stages have been my go to units for years and make even more sense when used with a MF amplifier.

 

Cart wise at that level don't even bother with MM go straight to low output MC, the rest of the system will more than cope. 

Thank you!  What do you mean when you say don't bother with MM and go straight to low output MC?

[allenh]

4 minutes ago, drewvandal said:

Thank you!  What do you mean when you say don't bother with MM and go straight to low output MC?

The Ortofon carts you are talking about are Moving Magnet (MM) but high end carts tend to be Moving Coil (MC) and the better ones are generally low output which need a higher gain and higher quality phono stage to get the best out of them.

 

Those are generalities and it's not to say there are good MM's and bad MC's but pretty much the above holds true and you have some very fine kit so why bother with average when it comes to front end?

[drewvandal]

1 minute ago, allenh said:

The Ortofon carts you are talking about are Moving Magnet (MM) but high end carts tend to be Moving Coil (MC) and the better ones are generally low output which need a higher gain and higher quality phono stage to get the best out of them.

 

Those are generalities and it's not to say there are good MM's and bad MC's but pretty much the above holds true and you have some very fine kit so why bother with average when it comes to front end?

Can you recommend a few as a starting point to start doing some homework?

 

[allenh]

Off the top of my head Denon are known for very good and value for money MC's as are Audio Technica, and the lower end Dynavectors, but also Benz Micro, all make low, medium and high output MC's and also Sumiko make some nice higher output ones. You can also look at people like Ortofon and Goldring.

 

With your components I would be looking at something like a Benz Micro Gold or a Denon 304 or 103

[kannibal]

I have a VPI Classic 1. I can recommend a Musical Surroundings Phenomena II, as it's what I have, and I really like it. But, it's the only phono stage I have used in my current system (but I did compare it to a decent built-in stage in a Yamaha AS700 before I swapped that out for separates, and it was no contest), so I really can only recommend the MS without any relative context. 

 

I have tried four different cartridges on my Classic, though. Denon DL-160, Dynavector XX-2, Ortofon 2M Black, and an Audio Technica AT33PTG/II, which is my current cartridge. My favorite is the Dyna, but it's also the most expensive by a mile. The Ortofon was good, but it didn't really have a sound signature that I liked. Plus it's super fussy when it comes to setup, and that would have driven me nuts. I like what I perceive as the Japanese MC sound, and while Denon was good at first, going back to it after my XX-2 really showed it's limitations. So far the AT has been good, it's not as rich as the XX-2, and seems more even across the sound spectrum, which is what it is known for. I feel like performance wise it easily stands up there with the XX-2, but without the rich presentation and some of the sound texture I love.

 

Well, I was going to recommend a Dynavector 10x5 or a AT cart like mine or the US version of it, but the 10x5 is retailing for $650 now! Damn! So, I recommend you look into the AT33PTG/II, it's a Japan and U.K. product, or the US equivalent which is the OC9/III, I think. 

 

Do your best to listen to anything you are considering, but don't worry too much about it either as differences are usually subtle, and you probably won't be able to hear differences until you start getting used to higher end gear. When you're getting started, you have to buy a bit blind until you get some experience and time with different gear to better understand your taste.

 

So don't sweat it too much, and enjoy your music.

Edited November 12, 2016 by kannibal
Just wanted to acknowledge the very allenh length of my post and thank him for the inspiration

[allenh]

18 hours ago, kannibal said:

Well, I was going to recommend a Dynavector 10x5 or a AT cart like mine or the US version of it, but the 10x5 is retailing for $650 now! Damn! So, I recommend you look into the AT33PTG/II, it's a Japan and U.K. product, or the US equivalent which is the OC9/III, I think. 

 

So don't sweat it too much, and enjoy your music.

I'd agree with all of that especially the last sentence, I like the AT's but its all about personal preference and the MF sound can be a tiny bit bright so tends to call for something more neutral, I suggested the Denon's for value for money and the Benz for neutrality and given the choice I still think I'd go with the Benz.

The AT33 and OC9 are quite a bit different though although they both retain the basic AT sound

[kannibal]

6 hours ago, allenh said:

The AT33 and OC9 are quite a bit different though although they both retain the basic AT sound

How so? The stats, materials, and build are nearly identical.

[allenh]

4 hours ago, kannibal said:

How so? The stats, materials, and build are nearly identical.

The coil impedance and coil construction are quite different, the compliance is different which means the cantilevers differ and the stylus profile is different. All of those make them very different cartridges.

Of the two I'd go for the AT33PTG/II, with the £ the way it is it's much better value for money from the US and it has a more neutral sound.

[kannibal]

I don't want to look up everything, I know they weigh slightly different, but both have line contact stylus. I have heard the OC9 . Is slightly brighter. 

 

One problem i had had with the 33 was the weight. It's lighter, and it nearly didn't work. My counter weight is all the way up. If it needed more weight, the only option would be a headshell weight, which I have, but finding screws the length needed has driven me nuts. 

[allenh]

12 hours ago, kannibal said:

I don't want to look up everything, I know they weigh slightly different, but both have line contact stylus. I have heard the OC9 . Is slightly brighter. 

 

One problem i had had with the 33 was the weight. It's lighter, and it nearly didn't work. My counter weight is all the way up. If it needed more weight, the only option would be a headshell weight, which I have, but finding screws the length needed has driven me nuts. 

There are quite a few differences and yes they are both line contact but different profiles of line contact

Are you using imperial or metric screws? If metric you might want to look at the imperial equivalents as I suspect they are still easier to get in the US. I buy mine on ebay and just search m2.5 x 14 for instance

[kannibal]

Drew, what's the latest?

[drewvandal]

On 11/18/2016 at 3:45 PM, kannibal said:

Drew, what's the latest?

Honestly feeling a little burnt out about all of it.  The step I am about to make is huge, going from a table with a built in phono-pre to having to purchase a turntable, cartridge, phono stage, new cables, etc. 

 

I hardly ever listen to my records while sitting down, i'm always working or doing something around the house.  I really want a great set it and forget it system.

 

I guess I'm at a crossroads of do I want to go for true entry level audiophile or do I want to maybe scale it back and get a Scout Jr (or similar) with comparable cables, phono stage, etc.

 

[drewvandal]

Another thought would be to sell my Music Fidelity Amp and get something like a Cronus Magnum. 

I would be putting off getting the turntable but it would be on less step so I wouldn't be doing everything in one shot.

[drewvandal]

Uping this as I am curious what you all think about going for a Cronus Magnum and holding off on a new table / cart

[Tardcore]

My barely-informed opinion is that you will see a bigger improvement from a source upgrade than you will from moving up to a new integrated.  I guess the wild card is the phono preamp but I still think the table is the way to go.

 

That said.  If I ever move on from my Marantz PM8004, the Rogue Audio catalogue would be one of my first stops.   Yum.

[allenh]

5 hours ago, Tardcore said:

My barely-informed opinion is that you will see a bigger improvement from a source upgrade than you will from moving up to a new integrated.  I guess the wild card is the phono preamp but I still think the table is the way to go.

Generally yes changing the source (with a turntable you can treat the cartridge as the very front end) and speakers has more effect than changing the amplifier but that is generally, also at this end of the spectrum you are into different rather than better or worse territory.

 

Your MF amp has a very particular sound signature so I would make sure you listen as much as possible to anything you intend to replace it with if you do go down that road as what you replace it with won't necessarily be better or worse but it will probably be different.

 

I have to ask is it just money burning a hole in your pocket or is there something about your system or it's sound that you don't like? From memory you felt your turntable wasn't up to the rest of your system so changing your amplifier isn't going to change that.

 

The other thing to consider though is that your amplifier is the backbone of your system so if you are not satisfied with your sound when you upgrade a source around it you at least know for sure what the effect has been

 

I always bang on about listening to anything you want to buy because we all have different tastes and different ears and Hifi knowledge is about experience and nothing more really so that the more stuff you hear the more stuff you have experience of, problem is that experience to be honest should only ever treated as a rule for yourself and a guide for others.

[drewvandal]

On 11/26/2016 at 2:45 AM, allenh said:

Generally yes changing the source (with a turntable you can treat the cartridge as the very front end) and speakers has more effect than changing the amplifier but that is generally, also at this end of the spectrum you are into different rather than better or worse territory.

 

Your MF amp has a very particular sound signature so I would make sure you listen as much as possible to anything you intend to replace it with if you do go down that road as what you replace it with won't necessarily be better or worse but it will probably be different.

 

I have to ask is it just money burning a hole in your pocket or is there something about your system or it's sound that you don't like? From memory you felt your turntable wasn't up to the rest of your system so changing your amplifier isn't going to change that.

 

The other thing to consider though is that your amplifier is the backbone of your system so if you are not satisfied with your sound when you upgrade a source around it you at least know for sure what the effect has been

 

I always bang on about listening to anything you want to buy because we all have different tastes and different ears and Hifi knowledge is about experience and nothing more really so that the more stuff you hear the more stuff you have experience of, problem is that experience to be honest should only ever treated as a rule for yourself and a guide for others.

I just placed a 2M Red on my Denon 300F and BLOWN away by the results.  I know it's not the best cart but I think it will be a big upgrade over the stock which I had been listening with. 

 

I also decided on buying the Cronus Magnum II, when I demoed it with my budget table and cart I was floored.  It means I am going to have to wait to get a new turntable but my local audio guy and I both agree it was a more efficient and effective way to upgrade my system.

 

With that being said if anyone is interested in a basically brand new Music Fidelity M3i send me a PM

[allenh]

7 hours ago, drewvandal said:

I also decided on buying the Cronus Magnum II, when I demoed it with my budget table and cart I was floored.  It means I am going to have to wait to get a new turntable but my local audio guy and I both agree it was a more efficient and effective way to upgrade my system.

Normally changing the amp wouldn't be the biggest change but the big change there is you are going from solid state to valves which is always going to be a big difference in sound.

I'm not surprised you like the Cronus as the MF sound is one of those that is as close to valves as you get with transistors but it's still nowhere near.

 

If you like valves then you are opening up a whole different world and it is very much a personal taste thing, I love valves and have from the first time I heard them but it's not for everyone.

You can now go into the world of tube rolling as you colonials call it which is changing different valves of the same type from different manufactures as this can change the sound of your amplifier quite a bit, Rouge I expect will have got this about right but a little experimentation never hurt anyone and you can always put the originals back if you don't like the new ones, also having spare valves about is a standard requirement of the valve equipment user.

 

Welcome to the world of going to make a coffee whilst the valves warm up when you want to start listening and thinking all the time is that valve dying? do I need to buy some more? Valves are in no way convenient but are worth every bit of inconvenience to me, my system is so full of them I don't need any heating in the room in winter when I have them on.