General "Brüsker Dü Needs Help" Thread

[aflycon]

Okay, I thought I'd repurpose this thread to be used for all my questions about vintage audio, instead of clogging up the subforum with a new one. Old info is in the spoiler below.

 

 

slinch, kannibal, I need your expertise!

 

Does anybody know anything about this turntable? Google turns up precious little about anything by Netronics (which apparently is a network company now), and I haven't been able to find any information on this particular model aside from a quite favorable review in a Popular Mechanics magazine from June, 1976.

 

I've found a local ad listing one of these for sale at $299 (thank him for the picture). The guy says it's been "cleaned, serviced, and balanced," but I'm going to insist on play-testing it if I'm going to buy. If anyone has any light to shed on this table, what can you say about it? In working condition, would it be a good vintage choice? Adjusting for inflation, this would be a $700 turntable new, today. 

 

Also, it comes with an "Ortofon 5M" cartridge, which I couldn't find any info on. Maybe he means the OM 5E?

 

The ad's been up for a month already, so I'll try to talk him down to $250 or so if you guys give me the green light.

 

EDIT: Just something to share with you serious HiFi guys, here's another local listing for a vintage Marantz turntable, the SLT 12-U. I watched the guy's video and it's cool as shit, what a player. Obviously far out of my price range.

[ajxd]

That Marantz is insanely good. I heard one at the Turntable Factory (RIP Joel Thorner) and it was really something for its time.

 

The Neutronics is also a looker. Is the glass face a visual for pitch? Speed? Very cool looking, never seen one. Which can be weird... Joel had mountains of unheard tables in the factory... and I'm guessing something that cool looking, he would have pointed out!

[aflycon]

That Marantz is insanely good. I heard one at the Turntable Factory (RIP Joel Thorner) and it was really something for its time.

 

The Neutronics is also a looker. Is the glass face a visual for pitch? Speed? Very cool looking, never seen one. Which can be weird... Joel had mountains of unheard tables in the factory... and I'm guessing something that cool looking, he would have pointed out!

 

Thanks for the response! Here is the link to the ad if you want to see more pictures. I wasn't sure at first, but upon looking closer it seems like the monitor is for pitch. 

 

The ad says this table is "extremely rare," and going by how little info I found on it (just the one Popular Mechanics article), I think it'd be safe to assume that there was a very short production run for these. The magazine hailed it as pretty cutting-edge, but maybe it was just too expensive? Must have not caught on. 

[allenh]

Its a kit turntable which is why you've never heard of it, very popular back in the 60's and 70's when US and UK schools produced people that could actually produce stuff rather than just as well as talking about doing.

Its got an Audio technica AT1005 tonearm which is a good thing and its under cartridged with that Ortofon in it.

AT arms were not cheap in their day so you can assume the whole thing is pretty nice quality and with a decent enough cartridge I would expect it to sound pretty good.

Its downside will be that as very few others have heard of it that its value is pretty low and why the ad has been around a while.

The Marantz though if working properly will blow it away with ease, I have a very similar Revox turntable and nothing tracks better than linear tracking done this way, the other way of doing it with an arm wand driven from the back of the plinth and favoured by B&O and most of the Japanese manufacturers is nowhere near as good but is easier to make.

Edit

I will say the Marantz isn't for the novice as cartridge changing and setup on this sort of system is not easy at all

[aflycon]

Its a kit turntable which is why you've never heard of it, very popular back in the 60's and 70's when US and UK schools produced people that could actually produce stuff rather than just as well as talking about doing.

Its got an Audio technica AT1005 tonearm which is a good thing and its under cartridged with that Ortofon in it.

AT arms were not cheap in their day so you can assume the whole thing is pretty nice quality and with a decent enough cartridge I would expect it to sound pretty good.

Its downside will be that as very few others have heard of it that its value is pretty low and why the ad has been around a while.

The Marantz though if working properly will blow it away with ease, I have a very similar Revox turntable and nothing tracks better than linear tracking done this way, the other way of doing it with an arm wand driven from the back of the plinth and favoured by B&O and most of the Japanese manufacturers is nowhere near as good but is easier to make.

Edit

I will say the Marantz isn't for the novice as cartridge changing and setup on this sort of system is not easy at all

 

Thanks for the info! So, would you say that this table (with a new cartridge, if the Ortofon is inadequate) would perform better than the more popular ones here at VC - the Debut Carbon and the Rega RP3? If so, I'll definitely jump on it, because that's a hell of a deal. 

[ajxd]

Not the RP3 that's for sure.

[aflycon]

Not the RP3 that's for sure.

 

Sorry, meant the RP1. 

[allenh]

Hard to say as I haven't heard one although I have owned and heard that arm on different turntables and its 2nd hand so I have no idea of the condition. If its local enough go and have a listen, always buy with your ears first.

The AT1005 is a nice arm but the Rega arm is better (but then the RB250/300 is a hard act to beat) so provided everything is in good working order I would value the turntable on the arm alone, that way you won't loose out if you decide to move it on.

At a rough estimate the arm is worth around $150 to $200 on its own in good condition so if you can get the whole thing down nearer to $200 then its worth a go but its not the deal of the century, get it for below $100 and then its a bargain.

Its sat around a while for a reason and if that reason is because no one knows what it is then fine you might well have a gem on your hands but you also might not.

Bottom line, if you like what you hear and see and are comfortable with the price then buy it (it will be more interesting than a Project or a Rega) but if not don't.

[aflycon]

Hey guys, a bit of an update on this. The original listing (at $299) expired and the guy has relisted at $199. So, I'm going to put my setup up for sale to help offset the cost of the new table and then jump on it. I'd like to avoid having to drop a bunch of money on a preamp if possible, so I'm looking at receivers with phono stages. 

 

I've found an ad for the Pioneer SX-440, and after doing a bit of research it seems like a pretty solid receiver. Some folks over at AudioKarma seem pretty happy with theirs. 

 

There's also the Sony STR-6050, which at $125 is a little more than I would like to spend but also seems to be a solid receiver. I can see an option for "Phono" on the front faceplate, but I don't know if that necessarily means this has a built-in phono stage. (Sorry, this shit all gets pretty confusing to me.)

 

Lastly, there's this Technics SA-5400X. Doesn't seem too shabby and it's only $50. 

 

What do you guys think of these? Assuming that they'll be paired with the Netronics table, should any of these receivers give any better a performance than the others?

[allenh]

Providing the electronics are all good any one of those should work well with it so it's down to personal preference really.

 

At that vintage all of them should have a built in phono stage so no worries there but can you hear any of them before you buy?

[aflycon]

Thanks for the info. The SX-440 is the shortest drive from me (and also the cheapest), so I'll probably go that route. I'll see what I can do about listening before purchase.

[aflycon]

Hey guys. Here's what's up. I slept too long on the Netronics and the ad is gone, so it's probably sold. That being said, I still have this itch to make the jump into vintage audio, so I listed my turntable and setup on craigslist about two weeks ago and I'm selling it tomorrow.

 

Here's what I'm planning on putting together now, over the next week or so. I'd appreciate your guys' thoughts on whether these pieces are a good match, what I can do to improve, etc.

 

Dual 1218 turntable ($149) - cosmetically and functionally in good condition. Buying from a licensed audio dealer so I think the risk of it shitting out on me when I get home is low. Maybe there'll even be a warranty. It's equipped with an Audio-Technica cartridge, which will be the first thing I upgrade. (Looking at the Grado Black, but I would appreciate suggestions if you've got 'em.)

 

Pioneer SX-650 receiver ($80) - this is in rough aesthetic shape, but I'm really kind of smitten with how cool it looks. I took some wood tech classes in high school so I don't think it will be too far out of my wheelhouse to build a new case for it, sometime down the road. A fun DIY project. I think the guy is asking too much (and AudioKarma agrees), so I will offer $50. 

 

Pioneer CS-52T bookshelf speakers ($80) - I think the price on these is a little high as well, so I'll probably offer $50. I think they're pretty cool for being as old as they are. 

 

I will be able to demo all of these things before I buy them, and I'll definitely be doing that to make sure everything is in good working order. The speakers guy says he has a receiver for sale as well, so if you guys aren't too keen on the SX-650 I'll see what I can get from him.

 

I appreciate all your guys' help so far, and I'm really looking forward to getting my first "real" setup put together. Thanks again!

[ajxd]

Here's the thing on those Dual... even if it works for 2 weeks, it can stop working. It has an idler wheel system... those have a 30 year shelf life. This table is definitely older than 1983...Also I'll quote xxMartinxx here "Audio dealers are second slimiest only to used car dealers.". That Dual is pretty common, and $150 is the highest I've ever seen it go (except I remember one sale had original box and stuff... people go nuts for that). The cartridge is also a $25 cartridge. I'd push it lower, but I'd probably pass over all.

 

The Pioneer back is weird! I like it. I wouldn't re-veneer it. I'd strip all the veneer off, paint it. I did that with my VPI 16.5, looks badass.

 

Buying vintage has its ups and down. The hunt is fun, the sound is good, but the risk sucks. Also, as soon as you start swapping pieces out for new modern audio, you'll realize what you were missing out on.

[aflycon]

Thanks for your thoughts on the Dual. The same guy also has this Pioneer PL-117D listed, which I had looked at before - but I'm not a big fan of how it looks, and on top of that it's pretty scuffed up. Definitely a nicer cart though. What do you think of that one? (There's also a Micro Seiki MB-14 available, but that's a little more than I'd like to spend.)

 

I totally agree on the receiver! It's the coolest one I've seen listed so far, and from what I've seen over at AudioKarma it's a pretty solid workhorse. Somebody over there stripped his veneer with a heat gun - is that the best way to do it, or should I sand it off or something?

 

Truthfully I'm afraid to get into more modern audio because I don't want to fall into that pit-trap of always being able to make my setup just a little bit better. Of course, the same thing will happen with vintage stuff I'm sure, but I think losing some money on faulty vintage equipment will sting a little less than buying a $10,000 tonearm for my $35,000 table. Maybe when I'm older (and have more money) I'll try it. 

[Sidney Crosley]

 

Truthfully I'm afraid to get into more modern audio because I don't want to fall into that pit-trap of always being able to make my setup just a little bit better. Of course, the same thing will happen with vintage stuff I'm sure, but I think losing some money on faulty vintage equipment will sting a little less than buying a $10,000 tonearm for my $35,000 table. Maybe when I'm older (and have more money) I'll try it. 

 

As someone who is in the midst of a process of replacing vintage/hand-me-down equipment with newer audiophile stuff, I can tell you that it definitely doesn't need to be that expensive or prohibitive. I replaced an early 90s Kenwood receiver with a second-hand (4 year-old) NAD amp that I picked up for less than $300 US. I was kind of shocked at the sound difference, even in spite of using an old JVC TT with a lousy cartridge. I've committed to picking up some Wharfedale Diamond 10.1s tonight for under $200, which will be a big step up from my dad's old Bose speakers (which aren't terrible, but are also very much not good...). I think if you start to look carefully, and replace with care and caution, you can start to put together a very decent system without breaking the bank. For some of the folks on the forum, it would seem that upgrading is done in time, but I will guess that outside of some people all buying the same $1000 turntable (see the other recent post), a lot of people on this board have found a lot of contentment with a variety of setups. I personally have had the itch over the past few months to upgrade, but I have had the same vintage TT on and off for more than 12 years (I will admit I made a Crosley mistake about 8 or 9 years ago, but not surprisingly, it didn't last very long). 

 

Take a look for good deals on 'modern audio' equipment that has good reviews. You'd be surprised what you can find...

[aflycon]

As someone who is in the midst of a process of replacing vintage/hand-me-down equipment with newer audiophile stuff, I can tell you that it definitely doesn't need to be that expensive or prohibitive. I replaced an early 90s Kenwood receiver with a second-hand (4 year-old) NAD amp that I picked up for less than $300 US. I was kind of shocked at the sound difference, even in spite of using an old JVC TT with a lousy cartridge. I've committed to picking up some Wharfedale Diamond 10.1s tonight for under $200, which will be a big step up from my dad's old Bose speakers (which aren't terrible, but are also very much not good...). I think if you start to look carefully, and replace with care and caution, you can start to put together a very decent system without breaking the bank. For some of the folks on the forum, it would seem that upgrading is done in time, but I will guess that outside of some people all buying the same $1000 turntable (see the other recent post), a lot of people on this board have found a lot of contentment with a variety of setups. I personally have had the itch over the past few months to upgrade, but I have had the same vintage TT on and off for more than 12 years (I will admit I made a Crosley mistake about 8 or 9 years ago, but not surprisingly, it didn't last very long). 

 

Take a look for good deals on 'modern audio' equipment that has good reviews. You'd be surprised what you can find...

 

I'll certainly always keep an eye out (I search craigslist and shit almost daily), but as a student I think going vintage on the cheap will be the best way for me to get a setup that's a step up from what I have now, while getting to experience vintage audio - which, to me, is way cooler than the contemporary stuff. 

 

I'm sure that at some point I'll at least make the jump to something like the Pro-Ject DC or a comparable Rega, but not now. 

[Sidney Crosley]

Also check out this site: http://www.usaudiomart.com/ 

Kind of a Craigslist for audio equipment. A lot of high end stuff there, but a fair amount of (very good) vintage, and has a feedback system, which Craigslist is sorely missing.

[aflycon]

Also check out this site: http://www.usaudiomart.com/ 

Kind of a Craigslist for audio equipment. A lot of high end stuff there, but a fair amount of (very good) vintage, and has a feedback system, which Craigslist is sorely missing.

 

Thanks, I'm checking it out now!

[ajxd]

For some of the folks on the forum, it would seem that upgrading is done in time, but I will guess that outside of some people all buying the same $1000 turntable (see the other recent post), a lot of people on this board have found a lot of contentment with a variety of setups.

 

As one of those people who just bought a $1k table... I'd been using a Pro-Ject RPM1.3 for 5 years! I was long due for an upgrade. I wasn't even looking to upgrade my table as I just bought a nice cartridge... but that deal was stupid to pass on!

[aflycon]

It's that time again, guys.

 

My current setup is a Philips 212 with a Pickering XV-15 cart, running through a Denon DRA-425R A/V receiver into some big, floorstanding Infinity speakers. Can't seem to find the model number on them anywhere, which is a shame because I'd like more info.

 

I'm really happy with the turntable. There are a few things I'd like to do to it - replace the shitty wood veneer with real wood, polish it up, improve the response of the touch controls - but overall it's just fine. Runs laps around my old TT.

 

My concern is the receiver. From what I've read over at AudioKarma, it's a pretty stellar receiver. However, this is contrary to everything I know about A/V receivers, and I feel like I could do better. Moreover, some part of me wants my entire setup to be vintage. 

 

So again, I'm looking at a Pioneer SX-440 receiver. If I buy it, I'll probably end up doing an A/B comparison, but I'd appreciate anything you guys could tell me beforehand. The Pioneer is described as "warm," which the Denon certainly isn't - it's fairly precise, but overall underwhelming to my ears. I listen to a lot of folk and classic rock, so I think "warm" would be nice. 

 

Anyway, do any of you guys have experience with this receiver or something similar? 

 

I've also found a set of Sansui 2700A speakers for free, assuming that they're still available. I'll try to find a model number on my current speakers once The Times They Are a-Changin' is finished and do a comparison there.

[allenh]

A few things spring to mind.

Your Denon I expect will be getting praise for it's AV ability rather than it's pure musical ability which is probably why you don't like it but the Pioneer SX440 is quite a way down the food chain so although it will definitely be warmer and more musical you might find you feel like you are missing something detail and precision wise so an A/B test would be very advisable. I think I would go a little more modern and a little higher up the food chain.

The Sansui's are the right price so definitely worth a go, Ideally they want to be the version with the horn tweeters otherwise they will sound a bit flat but at that price if the drivers or crossover capacitors are toast they might make a good project.