Just ordered a Marantz... now I can be cool, too.

[kannibal]

This morning I was typing out a reply to your previous message and stopped myself. My post was going to question why you decided to go so far down the line in a mass market brand, and how I was afraid you were in too deep to go so far back. It sounds like, initially anyway, I wasn't far off in my concerns. Ha!

 

Well, the good news is it will change a bit after some use, right? And you found an EQ that appears to be somewhat satisfying. But this line struck me, and I'm afraid it may never change:

 

"The holographic 3D sound is gone.  The realness is gone."

 

That is the huge, game breaking difference for my on, say, Badmotorfinger 25th. No 3D soundstage, nothing tangible. 

 

It it may also be that the Marantz just wont "fix" bad sounding records like your ARC did. You said yourself the DinoJr record was a rough subject. I'm curious to hear the difference on a better sounding record. 

 

All will be well, eventually, I'm sure.

 

[allenh]

On 11/01/2017 at 10:08 PM, xxmartinxx said:

Not sure why I can't add text to the above message.

 

Anyway.  Do I really have to give back my card when I plugging in a $2000 turntable and  $1000 preamp into it?  Actually, that might make it worse.  Nevermind.

Unfortunately yes it does make it worse, you're insulting your front end, now go to the back of the queue and don't shout out again, we can only issue you with a provisional card now and it's unsettling the rest of the class. The only saving grace is that you didn't buy a bloody Onkyo

 

On a serious note, I hate to say I told you so but.....

I'm with kannibal on this one the line about the realness and 3D soundstage jumped out at me as well, it will get better as it burns in but I suspect you will always listen to it and hear what you are missing, it's the bits that grab your ear when you're not really listening that you will miss the most.

The HiFi law of diminishing returns is very much in evidence here, there's a huge price differential between your two amps and the basic sound is not on the face of it that much different but that difference is actually very significant and that's where all the money goes, that last little bit in any hi end component costs a huge amount but when it's gone you realise it was worth every penny.

[xxmartinxx]

The ARC sold quickly for more than I paid for it.  The Marantz sounds okay and I think I'm okay with that, but I still look for lower priced 6550/KT88 based integrated tube amps.  

[Tardcore]

I had a Marantz PM5004 and PM6004 and found them to be pretty similar. I liked the feature set and the price (~$200 and ~$450) Eventually upgraded to a PM8004 for around $500 and it's a different world.  If you're on the fence about your PM6005 (?) keep an eye out for a good used PM800x.

[xxmartinxx]

What is better about the PM8004?

[allenh]

23 minutes ago, xxmartinxx said:

The ARC sold quickly for more than I paid for it.  The Marantz sounds okay and I think I'm okay with that, but I still look for lower priced 6550/KT88 based integrated tube amps.  

If you are at all technical you can look at some of the cheap Chinese ones, the price you pay has no bearing on sound or build quality so you have to do some research by trying to work out what they've copied and be prepared to get the soldering iron out but if you do there are some absolute bargains out there.

[Tardcore]

8 hours ago, xxmartinxx said:

What is better about the PM8004?

The 800x series is made in Japan.  Everything about it is beefier.  

 

The features are pretty much the same.  No digital input (the 6005 has one, the 6004 did not).  Has a power amp only mode that I use to splice my 2 channel setup in with my AV setup, but that may not be useful to you.

 

Soundwise, I compared the 6004 and 8004 with the Monitor Audio RX1s I was using at the time and the 8004 sounded more defined with a better separation and a tighter grip on the low end.  I currently have it driving much more demanding 4ohm MA RX8s with no issues.

[xxmartinxx]

8 hours ago, allenh said:

If you are at all technical you can look at some of the cheap Chinese ones, the price you pay has no bearing on sound or build quality so you have to do some research by trying to work out what they've copied and be prepared to get the soldering iron out but if you do there are some absolute bargains out there.

I used to have  a Bewitch 6550 that I bought used a few years ago and it sounded pretty great.  I replaced the coupling caps with Jantzen Z-Superior caps. It wasn't as neutral sounding like the ARC, but there was magic there.  I think I sold it for a whopping $400 after shipping and PayPal costs.  

[ScaleTheInferno]

The PM6005 is a great bang for buck amp. I run my TV and blu ray through it.  But if you're using it for the built in phono stage? Umm hello mediocrity city. 

Source - own one and a trichord dino, beautiful combo

[xxmartinxx]

18 minutes ago, ScaleTheInferno said:

The PM6005 is a great bang for buck amp. I run my TV and blu ray through it.  But if you're using it for the built in phono stage? Umm hello mediocrity city. 

Source - own one and a trichord dino, beautiful combo

Nah, I'm using a Rogue Audio Triton phono preamp.  I can't use the onboard phono section since I'm using an MC cart (Denon DL-301 MKII).

Edited January 28, 2017 by xxmartinxx

[ScaleTheInferno]

Sorry I didn't read that properly. Give it time to burn in. I never use the EQ, it's not harsh. Then again, I never had a 2 grand amp to compare it to. But hearing you lamentations makes me want to. Been telling myself I'd be an idiot to chuck £800 on a Naim Nait 5si. Your comments are like a passive little devil sitting on my shoulders now.

[xxmartinxx]

25 minutes ago, ScaleTheInferno said:

Sorry I didn't read that properly. Give it time to burn in. I never use the EQ, it's not harsh. Then again, I never had a 2 grand amp to compare it to. But hearing you lamentations makes me want to. Been telling myself I'd be an idiot to chuck £800 on a Naim Nait 5si. Your comments are like a passive little devil sitting on my shoulders now.

On your recommendation, I messed with the EQ in and out and listened to J Mascis "Tied To A Star" and then Mantronix "The Album".    With the folky J Mascis record, it sounded way less muddy with the EQ out.  On the clean production of the classic hip hop Mantronix LP, this was a little more tricky.  The sound is more open, but also less smooth.  The highs are still a little harsh to my ear.  I don't know about break in on electronics, but it does sound less horrible than it did originally.  

 

Regarding the ARC.  Honestly, I think it's less about price and more about tubes.  If you've never heard a good tube preamp/power amp stereo, it could ruin you forever.  There is, for lack of a better term, magic to the sound.  It sounds more living and breathing.  It's hard to explain until you've heard it.

[allenh]

 

5 hours ago, xxmartinxx said:

 I don't know about break in on electronics, but it does sound less horrible than it did originally.  

 

Regarding the ARC.  Honestly, I think it's less about price and more about tubes.  If you've never heard a good tube preamp/power amp stereo, it could ruin you forever.  There is, for lack of a better term, magic to the sound.  It sounds more living and breathing.  It's hard to explain until you've heard it.

There will be break in (or burn in depending on what you want to call it) on it as there is with anything that contains passive components for that matter so I would give it a little more time to give you of it's best but I still don't think you will be happy with it's best although you may become used to it.

This is becasue you're right that big difference is all about valves vs solid state so if you are one of those that likes the valve sound then there is no alternative, there are those who don't of course but then they are deluded.

And again you're right that difference is hard to explain and whenever I get someone who refuses to grasp it and has never heard valves if I can I just sit them in front of mine, put on something I know they know well and say just sit, shut the F up and listen, it doesn't usually take long. It doesn't work on everyone but so far it's been about 8 to 1 in favor. My explanation is usually along the lines of it puts the life back also.

The way I've had the valve sound explained to me by those much more qualified to do so is that the sweetness in the sound is about minuscule distortions in the attack and delay of the sounds that your ears miss with the faster more accurate switching of solid state but the placement in space of the sound is a different matter that no one has really explained to me properly

16 hours ago, xxmartinxx said:

I used to have  a Bewitch 6550 that I bought used a few years ago and it sounded pretty great.  I replaced the coupling caps with Jantzen Z-Superior caps. It wasn't as neutral sounding like the ARC, but there was magic there.  I think I sold it for a whopping $400 after shipping and PayPal costs.  

The basic circuit of the ARC will have been better I expect but the Chinese bargains are out there, as I say you do need to know what they were trying to copy and look very hard at the quality and values of the components used and pretty much replace the valves virtually every time but I've got some here that absolute stunner's after a bit of work that I use to upset the hifi snobs.

[xxmartinxx]

Fuck.  This thing just died.  It's had less than 10 hours of use.  FML.

[Tardcore]

17 minutes ago, xxmartinxx said:

Fuck.  This thing just died.  It's had less than 10 hours of use.  FML.

That's pretty crazy.  Did you buy it new? As a refurb?

[xxmartinxx]

It was a refurb from accessories4less.com.  I figured that was safer than buying a used one.  Apparently, not really.  Back to tubes I go.

[Tommy]

On 1/27/2017 at 1:56 AM, xxmartinxx said:

What is better about the PM8004?

 

On 1/27/2017 at 10:56 AM, Tardcore said:

The 800x series is made in Japan.  Everything about it is beefier.  

 

The features are pretty much the same.  No digital input (the 6005 has one, the 6004 did not).  Has a power amp only mode that I use to splice my 2 channel setup in with my AV setup, but that may not be useful to you.

 

Soundwise, I compared the 6004 and 8004 with the Monitor Audio RX1s I was using at the time and the 8004 sounded more defined with a better separation and a tighter grip on the low end.  I currently have it driving much more demanding 4ohm MA RX8s with no issues.

I got my PM8004 on Tards recommendation.

still love it.

you should get one.

[xxmartinxx]

For obvious reason, I don't feel inclined to double down on Marantz.

[Tardcore]

4 hours ago, xxmartinxx said:

For obvious reason, I don't feel inclined to double down on Marantz.

Hopefully you can return. I had the HDMI card go out on an AV receiver I bought from Accessories4less and I had to go through the manufacturer for warranty repair.  On the bright side, it was fixed for free with no further issues and minimal hassle.

[allenh]

10 hours ago, xxmartinxx said:

Back to tubes I go.

Should you have left in the first place?

[xxmartinxx]

The warranty center emailed me today and said that it's working fine on the tech's bench.  This, to me, is the worst case scenario.  It means I will likely get the unit back untouched and it will probably stop working again.  

 

For those who have a PM6005, or the like, what happens when you power it on?  Mine (when it worked), would turn on, the light by the power switch would flash a few times, make some audible clicks, would go to blue  (I THINK it would go blue, other blue lights would turn on), and the rest of the lights would turn on.  This this the expected behavior?  

[allenh]

14 minutes ago, xxmartinxx said:

The warranty center emailed me today and said that it's working fine on the tech's bench.  This, to me, is the worst case scenario.  It means I will likely get the unit back untouched and it will probably stop working again.  

 

For those who have a PM6005, or the like, what happens when you power it on?  Mine (when it worked), would turn on, the light by the power switch would flash a few times, make some audible clicks, would go to blue  (I THINK it would go blue, other blue lights would turn on), and the rest of the lights would turn on.  This this the expected behavior?  

I don't own one but it sounds right to me, I would expect it to go through a checking routine with the protection circuit before it allows the outputs to connect to the speaker load which it sounds very much like what it's doing.

 

Is it getting upset with your speakers? It might be seeing what it thinks is a very low resistance when it starts up and not like it, so if it plays up again try it on some different speakers and see if it powers up then but make sure you disconect it from the mains before trying the speaker swap so that you know it has completely reset first.

[xxmartinxx]

I'm using KEF R300's, which are 8 ohm.  Nothing too low.

 

It seemed right to me, but the user manual only mentioned it going into standby mode.  

[allenh]

I doubt it's that then as you're right those Kef's aren't particularly difficult to drive.

[Tardcore]

Sounds right to me.  There's a click and then the blue lights should come on while the power indicator stays red.  

 

Assuming you had speakers selected.  It will let you operate with no speaker set activated (A or B or A + B )

Edited March 10, 2017 by Tardcore