2 Channel Home Theater

[thebiglebowski]

So I bought the Epic 5s and am looking for an amp. I would like to incorporate them into a home theater setup as well as for vinyl. Here's where my head is at -- If the speakers are good enough for vinyl, they are good enough for theater. I just want movies to sound good. Buying a 1k dollar subwoofer to make my ass buzz during a loud scene doesn't really bring a ton to the experience in my opinion. They should have sufficient bass and I'd only really be losing the "surround" effect.

 

Any good video source is going to be sent via HDMI these days, however. So I don't want to go with old technology. I'm assuming any new receiver I could buy would be designed to work with 5.1, not stereo (thus either wasting a lot of money on amplification for channels I'm not going to use or not being very good). So how do I accomplish HDMI video to go along with 2 channel amplification? Pretty much asking if there is some kind of box I could plug an hdmi source into that would convert to 2 channel, which I could send to an integrated amp.

 

If I'm not assessing the problem properly or there is some other option, let me know. Thanks.

[slinch]

What is the source? If I understand correctly you're concerned with getting stereo sound from the source that you can run to a standard integrated amp. Pretty much all source components have stereo analog audio outputs, so you don't have to use the HDMI cable for sound. You just run the sound and video separately. Upside: no limitations in buying an amplifier, downside: two cables instead of one.

[thebiglebowski]

Two main sources would be an HTPC and a PS3.

 

Yeah, I was forgetting that the PS3 can be set up to output sound over the RCA cables and HDMI video. Done it before.

 

HTPC only has HDMI and VGA outputs. I use it for a pretty significant portion of my viewing as well (streamed and downloaded TV / Movies). Not sure what I can do there.

[thebiglebowski]

And I run from the HTPC to this:

 

http://www.amazon.com/ViewSonic-PRO8200-1080p-Theater-Projector/dp/B00465W7EC/ref=sr_1_9?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1375043793&sr=1-9&keywords=viewsonic+projector

 

I like the projector. Don't really want to get a new one. Unfortunately it has a phono out, not a stereo.

 

So essentially just looking to do what the projector probably should do (take in the HDMI, put out a stereo signal) but do that outside the projector rather than internally.

[thebiglebowski]

I guess I am a fool for not just going to amazon and typing "hdmi to stereo converter".

 

http://www.amazon.com/Extractor-Digital-Converter--Embedder-Decoder/dp/B005COKXCO/ref=sr_1_3?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1375044054&sr=1-3&keywords=hdmi+to+stereo

 

Still like to hear opinions. Wondering if someone else would have a comment like "I've done this and it sounds great" or "You should just go 5.1 for movies with either an integrated and receiver combo or just an expensive receiver".

[ajxd]

Few things.

 

1) You absolutely don't need 5.1 for movies. I switched from 5.1 to 2 channel about 5 years ago. Haven't looked back. You may want to invest in a sub, depending on how the Epic's low end.

 

2) Not all speakers that are good for music, are good for movies. There's a lot more to this answer, but in short, there's a difference.

 

3) As you posted, you'll need a DAC. Don't get that DAC though. Its dinky. Or if you haven't bought an integrated yet... post a budget. Get an integrated with a good DAC. What type of TV do you have? This is how I do it...

 

Sources (Blu/HD DVD/Apple TV) -> TV via HDMI.  TV audio out via optical -> DAC. DAC -> preamp.

 

I use a Cambridge Audio Dac Magic (Not Dac Magic 100, not Dac Magic Plus. Older version, you can find em for ~$200 on eBay/Audiogon).

[slinch]

Yeah, if your HTPC has any other digital audio outputs (coax, toslink), getting a separate DAC is the best option. You'll actually get a much, much better sound quality from all your digital sources, and it's definitely a superior option to the HDMI/analog converter and to the receiver idea. I doubt that there's a sub $1.5k receiver that does digital to analog conversion on par with the Dacmagic.

 

And like ajxd, I'm also a "good two channel over a poor multichannel" guy. The only thing I miss is the center channel. I mostly use a PS3 and the downmixing is often a letdown, but the overall experience is still much better than what I'd get with a multichannel setup in the price range of my stereo rig.

[ajxd]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

Yeh I will say the center was the best part of a 5.1...

 

Lugging this 140lb monster into my BFF's HT made me really want to go back to 5.1....

[thebiglebowski]

Sweet. I get it. Put things in perspective.

 

The only "real" piece of equipment I own right now (the rest is cheap hand-me-down stuff) is the epic 5s. Slinch highly recommended the Musical Fidelity A308 integrated so I've been on the lookout for one at a good price. I have a good job so no real hard cap on price. It's more just a question of asking myself "how much can you really spend on audio equipment before I think -- shit, this is getting ridiculous." I'd say $1k per component is kinda that line for me right now but it isn't completely firm. I was thinking about going after an RP1 or maybe a used RP3 if I could find one.

 

If you dudes see any good deals along these lines, definitely pass them along. My TV is that projector I posted earlier and I have the Epic 5s. Everything else is up for replacement at the moment.

[circuit bored records]

I agree with ajxd that the HDMI to RCA converter you posted isn't a great idea to invest in. But If getting the best home theater sound for movies (blu-rays in particular) is a priority, then an audio processor with HDMI is the best idea. While an optical connection will sound great and pass digital 5.1 sound, it won't support DTS Master Audio tracks, HDMI is the only way to get that. Even with 2 channel, DTS Master HD and Dolby TrueHD tracks sound considerably better than PCM or bitstream counterparts that toslink/optical supports. Then again, I don't have much experience with separate DACs so I can't attest to how they compare, but I still place DTS Master HD audio as being the best sound you can get out of blu rays and TV.

What I've been looking into is an integrated amp that supports a feature called "HT Bypass" that you can run your left and right channel off of and hook it into a surround sound receiver that will have center and rears hooked up and process digital sources. That way you can run two channel for music off of the integrated amp and still use 5.1 for movies/TV with both components working together. Or there's always high end surround receivers that have phono pre amps that you can run HDMI through as well

Sounds like you're headed in the right direction though. I'll be curious what you end you end up with, as I'm looking into similar options. What I can't settle on is whether the do an integrated + receiver, or go with a separate pre processor and power amplifier. Been thinking about this for a while now, and I don't plan on running surround anytime soon.

[thebiglebowski]

What I've been looking into is an integrated amp that supports a feature called "HT Bypass" that you can run your left and right channel off of and hook it into a surround sound receiver that will have center and rears hooked up and process digital sources. That way you can run two channel for music off of the integrated amp and still use 5.1 for movies/TV with both components working together. Or there's always high end surround receivers that have phono pre amps that you can run HDMI through as well

 

 

 

Yeah, I was thinking about doing a bypass too. But the I ask myself -- If an integrated amp is good enough for vinyl, why wouldn't it be good enough for movies? If you go high end 2-channel amp and mediocre receiver, would the 2-channel maybe sound better? Or if you go high end receiver, why even buy an integrated? But then you have just spend $1500+ on the receiver. Should I have just bough an incredible integrated amp instead?

 

The whole though process just leads me in a circle. So I just decided that since I had already bought a pretty good set of floorstandings, I would focus on 2 channels and make them sound the best I could. Supposedly the rear channels don't really do a ton (little things like chirps and ambient noises). Like I said earlier, basically a superpowerful sub seems like it's barely making "sound" anymore -- just rumbles your chair during loud periods. Just don't see it as necessary. 2 channels with do fine.

[circuit bored records]

Yeah, I was thinking about doing a bypass too. But the I ask myself -- If an integrated amp is good enough for vinyl, why wouldn't it be good enough for movies? If you go high end 2-channel amp and mediocre receiver, would the 2-channel maybe sound better?

The advantage to not running your tv through an integrated amp is getting the benefit of a digital audio processor that can decode DTS Master HD and Dolby TrueHD. Of course this benefit really only applies to blu ray, but to me it seems kind of a waste to invest in a nice video set up and run analog out of the TV when the major plus to BR discs is not just HD video quality, but HD audio as well.

I know I'm going to be against the grain trying to argue for the advantages of digital audio on a vinyl message board, but I have been test driving a lot of receivers back and forth, and even in two channel HD audio comes through with better clarity and imaging when watching movies, IMO.

Marantz just came out with the SR6008 receiver, which not only decodes DTS but uses the same phono pre amp as the PM series. Putting the receiver in "pure direct" mode when listening to records shuts off the video processor and LCD screen and is basically the same as running an integrated. And it's not too bad of a price point (MSRP $1,199.99). Like yourself, I am leaning away from running ht bypass as it does seem a bit redundant unless I'm going with a crazy high end integrated for the phono stage. But at that point I might as well look into an entirely separate phono pre amp instead.

[ajxd]

I recently heard the phono board in the SR6008 (same as PM8004)... its real good.

[thebiglebowski]

Slinch/ajxd, if you were me, would you go for the SR6008? Don't mean to repeat myself, but all I have are the Epic 5s (which are nice, but not the speaker to end all speakers). So if the SR6008 allows me to get everything out of my speakers when I listen to vinyl (as opposed to going with the Musical Fidel A308 integrated), then maybe I should go that route? It would be nice to future-proof myself in case I do decide to go 5.1 later (and also saves me the money I would have to spend on a separate DAC).

Also, just from a high-level, if someone was to buy two floorstandings and later decide to go 5.1, what would be the thought process in buying the other speakers? Would any speaker that is designed to be a good center, back left/right, and sub work or do you have to make sure everything pairs properly (based on things like frequency ranges and whatever else)?

 

Thanks everyone for the advice.

[ajxd]

Everything has to match. Its called timbre matching. All speakers from the same series. Similar woofers/drivers/wiring/etc.

 

And if you think you'll definitely go 5.1... then yeh? But if you're on the fence still, I'd wait.

[thebiglebowski]

Alright. Well given that I just bought 2 floorstandings I am going to completely nix the idea of 5.1. Maybe way down the line.

 

Epic 5s (already have)

Musical Fidelity A308 integrated (used)

Rega RP3 (used)

DAC (haven't decided on the model but one that can decode blu-ray audio)

 

That's my set-up wish list. Just have to start crossing them off.

[slinch]

I absolutely agree with yanquiuxo, DTS HD and TrueHD are superior to DTS and DD, but the thing to consider is what the weakest point will be.

 

Putting music aside, and focusing on two channel movie audio for now, you're deciding between a ) a separate DAC + top notch stereo integrated and b ) a multichannel receiver, price point being about the same for a ) and b ). Will the lossy DTS audio, run through a good DAC and an integrated amp be better or worse than a losless DTS HD run through the receiver's DAC and the receiver's amplification? Now I don't have a ton of experience with HD audio, but from the little I have, I prefer the first option. Not that HD audio doesn't make a difference, but that the difference is nulled when used with inferior DAC and amplification.

 

From the viewpoint of listening to music though (vinyl and digital), there is no contest, the first option wins hands down.

[Tardcore]

I have similar needs to the OP and am interested in hearing some more DAC recommendations. 

 

I have been using one of these (mostly because I got it for half price). 

 

The udac2 is good for what it is--a portable, USB powered, headphone amp/DAC.  It sounds fine to me but the fact that it does not have a line-level output is obnoxious. It is just not ideal for a stationary PC/receiver setup.

 

The Cambridge Audio DAC seems to come up frequently as a "go-to" product.   What are some others?

[ajxd]

Cambridge Dac Magic

Parasound Z-Dac

Musical Fidelity V-Dac

PS Audio NuWave

Schiit Bifrost

[slinch]

Yulong D100

Arcam rDac

Rega DAC

Musical Fidelity M1 DAC

[Tardcore]

any experience/opinions on the DAC section in the Marantz SA8004? 

 

Recent career developments may allow me to allocate ~$5k to upgrades in the next year or two.  One possible upgrade path I am considering is going with a PM8004/SA8004 set up.

[ajxd]

My best friend just bought the entire 8004 line, raves about it. He says it rivals his McIntosh gear...

[Tardcore]

My best friend just bought the entire 8004 line, raves about it. He says it rivals his McIntosh gear...

 

Well, that is a strong endorsement.

 

Do you happen to know what type of speakers he uses with his 8004?  Does he use the baked in DAC/Phono Pre?

[ajxd]

Triad Silver Monitors. And yes.