Feminism (or the lack thereof) and Comics

[kriss]

Another thread speaking on the ratio of male to female posters got me to thinking about examples of gender roles and the prevalent themes that go with them.

Is anyone here into comics? If you are and in particular, have been paying attention to DC, they've been re-inventing themselves of late with a new continuity while re numbering all of their books at #1. Many of the characters (female especially) have been drastically re-invented as well with many reduced to one note parodies of who they were.

An interesting article on the denigration of female characters in the new DCU:

http://www.comicsalliance.com/2011/09/22/starfire-catwoman-sex-superheroine/

[podface]

i'd like to think of myself as a progressive and for equal rights and all that other hippy bullshit.. but honestly, i just can't muster up any real outrage on the state of female characters in comic books. i understand that there is a portion of DC's readership that are female or feminist, but i can equally get angry at the way guys are portrayed in shows like sex and the city or soap operas or even romance novels... and no one cares. and they shouldn't.

[kriss]

I can agree that males are portrayed in a similar light in shows like that and to some extent, I don't think these portrayals are wrong on either side of the gender fence - my issue comes with either persuasion being personified in a given media as *only* that way and nothing else.

DC's near complete obliteration of female characters as figures of anything besides fan service and sex is offensive in the company's sheer disregard for women as having the ability to demonstrate substance in any way. I'm saying this as a reader period and would have thought this way regardless of my gender. Choosing to represent women in this way is certainly not something DC is alone in as you've pointed out but does that make it any more right?

I think folks do care, I just don't think they often speak up about their disdain for how a gender is treated in a given media because they may be looked upon as leftist, liberal idiots which is certainly not true since wanting to see humans treated tastefully across the board isn't the worst platitude to reach for.

[saxamaphone]

I blame Rob Liefeld.

[kriss]

I would shift (some of) the blame onto Rob Liefeld for way more than this.

http://www.progressiveboink.com/archive/robliefeld.html

[podface]

I can agree that males are portrayed in a similar light in shows like that and to some extent, I don't think these portrayals are wrong on either side of the gender fence - my issue comes with either persuasion being personified in a given media as *only* that way and nothing else.

DC's near complete obliteration of female characters as figures of anything besides fan service and sex is offensive in the company's sheer disregard for women as having the ability to demonstrate substance in any way. I'm saying this as a reader period and would have thought this way regardless of my gender. Choosing to represent women in this way is certainly not something DC is alone in as you've pointed out but does that make it any more right?

I think folks do care, I just don't think they often speak up about their disdain for how a gender is treated in a given media because they may be looked upon as leftist, liberal idiots which is certainly not true since wanting to see humans treated tastefully across the board isn't the worst platitude to reach for.

very valid. i still don't personally care that much about it, but i can definitely see your point. i guess i always looked at comic books as more of a visual art form than as a vehicle to tell stories (at least that was the aspect i was interested it.) so as long as my favorite comic book artists are drawing cat woman and the huntress, i'm not too invested in their roles in the story (goes for the male characters too.) but again, thats totally personally.

i try to make a special effort to not really get offended or caught up in any kind of portrayal of any type of group in form of media outlet. i just don't think political-correctness has any place in any art form. i may not agree with the way DC is portraying their female characters (in fact, i'm always more attracted to a bad ass female character than any other protagonist,) but if they made the conscious effort to go in this direction, so be it.

[000000]

maybe Wonder Woman just isn't that cool of a superhero?

[kriss]

I can agree that males are portrayed in a similar light in shows like that and to some extent, I don't think these portrayals are wrong on either side of the gender fence - my issue comes with either persuasion being personified in a given media as *only* that way and nothing else.

DC's near complete obliteration of female characters as figures of anything besides fan service and sex is offensive in the company's sheer disregard for women as having the ability to demonstrate substance in any way. I'm saying this as a reader period and would have thought this way regardless of my gender. Choosing to represent women in this way is certainly not something DC is alone in as you've pointed out but does that make it any more right?

I think folks do care, I just don't think they often speak up about their disdain for how a gender is treated in a given media because they may be looked upon as leftist, liberal idiots which is certainly not true since wanting to see humans treated tastefully across the board isn't the worst platitude to reach for.

very valid. i still don't personally care that much about it, but i can definitely see your point. i guess i always looked at comic books as more of a visual art form than as a vehicle to tell stories (at least that was the aspect i was interested it.) so as long as my favorite comic book artists are drawing cat woman and the huntress, i'm not too invested in their roles in the story (goes for the male characters too.) but again, thats totally personally.

i try to make a special effort to not really get offended or caught up in any kind of portrayal of any type of group in form of media outlet. i just don't think political-correctness has any place in any art form. i may not agree with the way DC is portraying their female characters (in fact, i'm always more attracted to a bad ass female character than any other protagonist,) but if they made the conscious effort to go in this direction, so be it.

In many ways, I can agree with the art thing. Certainly with the last run of Catwoman, the art in that was amazing (the first several dozen issues all had a very shag art quality to them that I loved), the only thing with that comes in predominantly males drawing women with disproportionate curvature.

Honestly, I don't often get all that bothered by PC vs. Non PC stuff either, but coming across that particular article got me to thinking about whether I personally wasn't paying all that much consideration to others by purchasing and reading these comics and helping to create the demand for them in their present state as a result. Again, I'm not going to say I'm pure and honest (I still admit to having a thing for Power Girl), but I'm not necessarily sure I want to read women as a presence whereby they act only as toilets and sex toys for the male characters they're co-starring with.

[kriss]

maybe Wonder Woman just isn't that cool of a superhero?

Well certainly she's no Selina Kyle or Barbara Gordon.

[flood]

have you read Vertigo's Y:the last man? alot of interesting stuff on gender roles in that series.

Yeah its pretty shitty that they do this kinda thing, but sadly the buying public for such books is predominently male, and largley socially awkward ones at that.. who are generally more attracted to T&A with explosions, than anything with an actual plotline.

[kriss]

have you read Vertigo's Y:the last man? alot of interesting stuff on gender roles in that series.

Yeah its pretty shitty that they do this kinda thing, but sadly the buying public for such books is predominently male, and largley socially awkward ones at that.. who are generally more attracted to T&A with explosions, than anything with an actual plotline.

I really enjoyed Y: The Last Man alot - on one hand, I felt that they represented a segment of ladies who are on the other end of the spectrum (i.e. the hyper feminist group who each cut off one breast and wanted to see all males die out) but there were so many well written characters that it evened out. And that's the thing - I accept that there will be some women portrayed as sexually promiscuous but I think it's important to have other characters who offset them by holding different stances on the same issues. (Much in the way that you'll see one male who acts like a total pig while there's another one who is truly respectful and has an authentic moral center). Y: The Last Man succeeded in this wonderfully (certainly, there were characters in the book who only had sexual conquest on their mind).

I've found in recent years that I've been gravitating towards Vertigo as well as indie comics in general anyway (but more due to wanting a solid story without crossover gouging, though the misbalance of gender roles in the Big Two certainly helps me along that path of preference) - have you read Fables or DMZ? Both are great with story as well as balancing both genders and giving equal panel time (though DMZ could be seen as too politically heavy handed for some). Love and Rockets (the Jaime Hernandez stories anyway) have been one of my favorites for the longest time, I'm a bit of a sucker for most anything Fantagraphics puts out anyway.

[flood]

love Fables, its one of the best series out there today... haven't read DMZ yet but ive been told too... i kinda wish gaimen would do another Death series.. they've all been great

[tylerrr]

The way most female characters in Marvel and DC are drawn is pretty frightening... They almost always have what would be a size 0 waist, huge breasts (with plenty of cleavage), and are usually muscular and cut. I guess that's just the style these days as a result of the times we're living in. It's not like it upsets me, but I can definitely see why it would bother some people.

[kriss]

And that's the thing - even the imagery presents an extremely unrealistic view of women that distorts the way some readers may view women IRL. Of course, the same could be said for males as well - certainly I don't feel all that secure being a bit on the chubby side and looking at these dudes in the panels with butt chins and a six pack more dense than a block of concrete.

[tylerrr]

Haha I wanted to say that it doesn't seem realistic too, but then I thought... "well neither does a dude with spider powers, and the ability to create a synthetic web formula that can be projected at high speed with the strength to support not only one man but sometimes 3!"

So I just didn't mention it.

[kriss]

Heh. I can buy the powers element since the medium often dabbles in elements of the fantastic - just have folks (even the extremely fit ones) looking more realistic you know? Robert Kirkman who writes The Walking Dead has another series called Invincible which is a complete superhero comic, but in that book, most of the characters are drawn realistically despite their powers and costumes. It *can* be done, it just isn't. That's another reason why I appreciate indie comics as well as Vertigo (which aside from their DC ties, are for all intents and purposes indie in the sense that most of their books are creator owned and have few if any instances of cross overs) - characters look like people you'd see walking down the street and often have many of the same characteristic attributes as well instead of the rote postering and bravado that's been carried over from the Silver Age.