dobyblue

21 minutes ago, Derek™ said:

As someone who hadn't listened to Broken until a couple of weeks ago, I can tell you that each of the two masters are instantly recognizable.  The CD source requires you to crank your volume up; the remaster is more in line with the volume for the rest of the NIN catalog.  And when Wish takes off, it sounds loud and satisfying on the original master... but truly kicks you in the teeth (in the best way possible) on the remaster.

 

I'm waiting on an amp, but will have a "four-digit hi-fi setup" pretty soon here, and will gladly compare the two.  In the meantime, the definitive MP3s and FLACs are doing it for me with decent headphones and also in the car, surround speakers a'boomin'.  The Fragile, especially, is noticably louder but also... crisper?  I've listened to both versions at fairly high volumes and haven't picked up on any plateaud mastering or distortion.  I haven't spent years with the original CD, but in the last month I've revisited it a good bit and have officially swapped out the MP3s for the 2017 edition, in the car, and find myself going for the definitive editions of everything else that's been released so far.  I'll give them both a whirl when I get my hands on that DAC/amp, but for the time being I'd say that Trent and co. did a great job at breathing new life into the remasters and boosting their sound without brickwalling much (if at all?).  At least not from a standpoint of practical listening.  But I also don't plug into $3,000 headphones and $1,500 amps and carefully study spectral when I listen to music, so you may have to take this post with a grain of salt.

 

tl;dr – these sound just dandy.  I'll gladly pick them up when they hit shops this Spring.

I would be interested to hear your opinion once you upgrade your amp and as a disclaimer I'm not expecting your opinion to change just because you have better equipment...everyone experiences music differently. I find with great consistency that dynamically challenged recordings don't do it for me on my main system, I love the tension and release that changes in dynamics bring about (physiological response), I experience it myself when I'm playing piano or guitar. Anyway, I'm doing my listening on Acoustic Energy AELite 3 (http://www.acoustic-energy.co.uk/discontinued-products/aelite/aelite-3/) loudspeakers with an Onkyo TX-SR3010 AVR playing the FLAC files and CDs both through my Pioneer Elite BDP-62FD so that the transport is the same in each case. I do listen to the remasters in my car where I have a crappy factory GM Cobalt system, the car doesn't keep out noise much so there is lots of ambient noise inside the car and these loud remasters are suited for that sort of environment, one where critical listening would have me wrapped around a tree within two blocks. I listen to my vinyl on a Goldring GR-2 turntable, 1012GX cart and Parasound zPhono preamp, I have to say despite what the inaccurate vinyl rip shows the mastering sounds identical on Hesitation Marks vinyl to the digital mastering (either one).

Not sure people who listen with $3,000 headphones are studying graphs, seems like a bit of a straw man; most people I know with good equipment in the home listen to music with their eyes closed, I'm the same...I like my environment to disappear when I listen to music so I can come as close to experiencing what music was like for me 25 years ago when I dropped LSD a lot, lol.

There is lots in the NIN catalogue that isn't at these levels; Trent released multitracks for the entirety of the Year Zero and The Slip albums which are on par with somewhere between PHM '89 master and Broken '92 master, the 5.1 mixes of With Teeth and TDS are very dynamic, the 5.1 tracks on the AATCHB DVD and the BYIT Blu-ray. This refutes the argument that the original multitracks are already in this loud state.

It's odd that you find The Fragile "especially" louder as the volume is pretty much within a single decibel from the very loud original '99 CD. Broken 2017, PHM 2010 and TDS 2017 are all very noticeably cranked but The Fragile in terms of volume hasn't changed much. It is definitely brickwalled though as it always has been - here's a look at the waveforms (left and right) for the last 3m of the main part of "We're In This Together Now" - one is the original '99 CD and one is the 2017 remaster...pretty difficult to tell which is which but very easy to see they're both brickwalled and both very loud:

Now looking at the final 2m of "Wish"  you're correct that it should be immediately noticeable.



I find the CD kicks you in the teeth harder, that's generally what I expect given the bigger impact in the change of volume between the loud and soft passages not there to the same extent in the remaster. There's a reason why those loud bangs in horror movies add to the shock/scare of whatever is occurring on screen, it would lose its effect substantially were we to see this sort of sonic signature in movies.






 

I keep the remasters in the car too

39 minutes ago, daegor said:

Not to discount what your ears are hearing (really, I'm not trying to discount what anyone thinks about the remasters), but just bear in mind that familiarity bias is a very strong force any time you're comparing something like this.

 

If you find that you conclusion is emotional (it annoying you, or if you felt more involved with the familiar thing) there is a good chance you are being influenced by familiarity bias.

 

If you want to eliminate this possibility then do a double-blind test, take the same track from both sources and remove any way that you could identify the source.  Randomly play each one several times (maybe 10 at minimum, you don't have to play the full song, but try to be consistent) and indicate which play you thought was better.  There are ways you can do this alone, but it's probably easier to simply have a second person who is hitting 'Next' and can see which is which, recording your reaction.

 

EDIT:  I should note that there is the potental that you are TOO familiar with the original source and will be able to identify which is which even in a double blind, in which case you really can't remove the bias.

It would be very easy to pick them out, but DBX would be more for determining whether you can distinguish 24/96 from 16/44.1, you can't eliminate bias when it comes to what you like IMO. I either like bleu cheese on a burger or I don't, blindfolding me won't change that.

Broken has been remastered, not remixed. Bias would be someone saying "you can hear things you've never heard before"...no, you can't. You might be hearing things you don't remember hearing before, but sure as heck they're there. When you listen to a REMIX like TDS 5.1, then perhaps you may hear things you haven't heard before because it's a brand new mix.

Is the general consensus that the 2008 "320" stamper (EU) is the best sounding release of Dummy?

I had a good listen to Last and Suck over the holidays comparing my '92 CD (the one with 99 tracks) to the new 24/96 download. I listened to the CD first for one track and the 24/96 first for the other in an attempt to figuratively cleanse my aural palette if you will. I felt more involved in the music listening to the CD and had a more positive physiological reaction - the new mastering, for lack of a better term, annoyed me. I love this EP and really wanted to enjoy it, wanted to discover that the constant correlation I find (via LISTENING) between very poor DR #s and listener fatigue may have been cured by some newfound "definitive" mastering technique developed by Trent and Tom...but it was not to be.

Someone else's experience may differ. I know many people that preferred the remaster of PHM to the original, I think the original CD is one of the best sounding CDs I own and sounds better and better the louder I crank it.

 

On 12/27/2016 at 2:19 PM, firefoxussr said:

I mayyyybe will pick up the Fragile vinyl definitive... but after listening to a copy of the Deviations download, not sure I need to have this on vinyl.

My recollection is that even if the digital/hd versions are LOUDASSfk the vinyl version won't be... this seems to apply to any NIN release.

Unfortunately Trent has confirmed on ETS that the LOUDASfk 24-bit downloads are indeed the masters for the vinyl releases.






 

I think it's most likely that "DISC 5" is the tracks included on CD only and the vinyl version will be a 2LP+CD set.

On 5/17/2016 at 8:45 AM, nathan_s82 said:

Interesting, it's no longer on the Bullmoose Site, and on Acoustic Sounds, it's unavailable to order now.

So Acoustic Sounds just added a new listing for 24/96 and 24/192 downloads of the Singles OST. With no mastering information and AS unable to provide any, I bit the bullet with the 20% off coupon and ordered the 24/192 version.

Ugh, if this is the mastering that's going to make its way to an eventual vinyl release...I'll pass. This has been absolutely slammed in the mastering stage. Would? has gone from this powerful face-melter of a track to a sonic mess...so loud. It has lost approximately 6-7dB of dynamic range.

Of course there is no refund option, but at least I can write a review on there to warn others.

Sweet, Kevin Gray cutting from the tapes? I've never heard the original but I'd make a friendly wager this will trounce it in all aspects.

I don't doubt they could improve on Nevermind if they once again cut all analogue and like the 2LP 45rpm sent to Bernie Grundman Mastering...Bellman is one of the best in the biz and I can't imagine there is much difference whether he cuts it or Bernie cuts it. The ORG Incesticide was Bernie, the 2LP 45rpm was Bellman. I'd certainly pony up the money to try.

Had a shootout with the MOFI, original US vinyl and the UK 320 B2B 2008 release with the blue ORG and the ORG for me was the winner, most noticeably in the upper frequencies of Grohl's hi-hat/cymbals. Even the MOFI failed to resolve them with such clarity. My buddy who originally owned the MOFI ended up ordering the ORG and I think made $200 for his MOFI.

Incesticide: I had the clear and black ORG as well as the 45rpm and my impression was the 45rpm had an edge in bass and sounded a little more alive. It wasn't a big difference by any means, the ORG is a cracker! But I did find it easy to decide to keep the 45rpm and gift the ORG to my sister who loves vinyl and Nirvana...she was thrilled. I've had a few Nirvana fans listen to this record after surmising that the fidelity couldn't ever be impressive on this mish mash of different recording sessions and be blown away. It's a very impressive cut.

Paid $22 for the ORGs directly from their website and I got lucky on the RSD 45 and paid US$25 at Record Theater in Buffalo, NY. $25!! I heard most stores were selling this for around $50. Maybe RT messed up the list pricing?

Absolutely awesome news for those that missed out on the 45 that they're reissuing it. Well done UMe.

On 5/18/2016 at 11:19 PM, dethrock said:

Alright so he sent me the 2300 and the MintLP best tractor. Set it up and WOW. Even without being broken in it walks all over the Elys 2. So now I want to go even higher up the Goldring chain and be done with any upgrading for a few years. I'm between either the GL 2500 which is MM or the Eroica LX which is MC. MC carts are new to me so I'm hoping someone can help me out. Here's what my phono stage (Moon LP3) says:

 

End-user adjustable impedance loading (100 and 47k ohms).
End-user adjustable capacitance loading (0 and 100pF).
End-user adjustable gain settings for moving magnet (40dB) and moving coil cartridges (60dB). 
 

And here's the specs of the Eroica LX

 

I'm guessing they should work fine together?

How did you make out? I've tried a few different carts on my TT but none have sounded as good as my Goldring 1012GX...considering upgrading to the D44 stylus which turns it into a 1042 (http://www.lpgear.com/category/GOLD.html)

 

On 9/13/2016 at 6:24 AM, ntslash said:

It sounds fantastic on my setup. It's remastered from the original analog tapes. 

The original CD was mastered from the original analog tapes also, sounds fantastic on my rig.

On 9/13/2016 at 6:24 AM, ntslash said:

It sounds fantastic on my setup. It's remastered from the original analog tapes. 

The original CD was mastered from the original analog tapes also, sounds fantastic on my rig.

On 9/13/2016 at 9:33 PM, ntslash said:

Those hoffman guys don't have time to listen to records. They're too busy staring at dynamic range graphs and analyzing source info.

What's a dynamic range graph?

I didn't have time to listen to records last night, was too busy listening to the new analogue > DSD release (that's an SACD of course) of Rage Against the Machine's debut...absolutely fucking amazing. Listened to the entire thing from start to finish it sounded so good. Then, later, I watched the Jays game.

On 9/13/2016 at 9:33 PM, ntslash said:

Those hoffman guys don't have time to listen to records. They're too busy staring at dynamic range graphs and analyzing source info.

What's a dynamic range graph?

I didn't have time to listen to records last night, was too busy listening to the new analogue > DSD release of Rage Against the Machine's debut...absolutely fucking amazing. Listened to the entire thing from start to finish it sounded so good. Then, later, I watched the Jays game.

8 minutes ago, kramer73 said:

I agree, but I'm having a hard time spending $100 on it.  The Vs/Vitalogy boxset is $140, and includes cds, vinyl, Orpheum show Vinyl, etc.  I think their price point is a little high.  Maybe it'll end up on Popmarket a little cheaper.  

Yep fingers crossed it shows up a little cheaper elsewhere, it's a wide release like the Superunknown box set which I think I got closer to $79 on Amazon, so if that happens I'll order it, keep the Blu-ray and resell it sans Blu-ray for $50 or something like that. I'm perfectly fine paying @ $25 for the standalone Blu-ray but these stupor deluxe sets would rather force you to spend $100 on ONE DISC!! Pink Floyd did the same with the Immersion sets, I desperately wanted the Blu-ray from DSOTM to get a properly mastered 24/96 PCM version of Parson's original 4.0 Quad mix, couldn't afford $100 for a single disc tho.

 

Very disappointing news on the vinyl, the MOV pressing sounds excellent and better the more you turn it up, clearly containing all the dyanmics of the original. I don't know why they'd want to mess with the mix, but for God's sake why couldn't they have just done that for the CD and digital releases and sent off the master stereo tape to someone who treats vinyl properly, like Chris Bellman and cut it all analogue? After all that fanfare about getting the original ANALOG tapes back, it would have made sense no?

Anyway, the bonus audio and video stuff sounds really cool, especially that all the video stuff is included in HD on the Blu-ray, so I'm going to have to consider picking up that one. I love surround mixes but unfortunately with Adam Kasper involved my excitement went to zero. His 5.1 mix of Superunknown is unlistenable, worst 5.1 mix I've ever heard from original multitracks. And we can expect the touted 24/192 high resolution stereo mix to be loudness wars slammed just like Superunknown was.

TL:DR - bonus material sounds awesome and has me seriously considering the Super Deluxe edition. Will stick with MOV for vinyl. The names O'Brien and Kasper give very little reason to be excited about the new stereo or surround mixes.

16 hours ago, filthyrich said:

More importantly, the vinyl is MILES better than the CD. We're talking audiophile 90s vinyl (which rarely happens), right up there with the 45 RPM reissue of August & Everything After. Goes to show what an AAA transfer plus Chris Bellman will do for your record. Wish more bands would care this much about sound quality. 

Great post sir!!!!

7 minutes ago, timsimmons said:

I'm sure it's probably not gonna happen, but I'd love for DMB to let Lillywhite do a mix and a master of the unfinished Lillywhite sessions and have them put them out. I know it's missing a bunch of parts and final lyrics, but they may as well capitalize on something that people have but would still buy if officially put out. 

I would just about wet my drawers if this was announced. It would be so cool. For me BTCS was their masterpiece but had this album been completed I truly feel it would have eclipsed it...what a bizarre turn of events this was losing this incredible collection of songs in favor of chrome-polished Everyday. Ugh.

Busted Stuff was a pale shadow of the Lillywhite Sessions versions.

Presumably folks here are going to be more aware of how rarely splatter vinyl looks like a graphics company's mock-up (note in the Amazon pic there are several tracks shown on the playing surface of the red vinyl, lol) than the mess of whiners that's broken out over at the antsmarching.org site, but just in case here are some pics of the splatter vinyl.






 

For some additional info it looks like Bob Ludwig is doing the remastering, which means for sure it's digitally remastered. I'm still interested in DOTU though, Bob still makes great sounding records and hopefully Universal are leaving him alone to do his stuff and not pestering him to "make it loud" like they did with the awful 20th anniversary release of Nirvana's Nevermind. (on the latter they learned their lesson, when they reissued a single LP in 2013 on Geffen they used the AAA lacquers Bernie Grundman cut for ORG in 2009!)

His recent digital remasterings of Springsteen titles were well received.

Louder Than Love should have been 2LP also with SIDE A running over 27 mins...looking forward to finding out more about Down on the Upside tho, such a great album I'd love to have a well done vinyl in my collection.

4 hours ago, timsimmons said:

Doby I think your hopes are continually way too high when it comes to all analog releases. 

It's moreso because when you do AAA, you're far less likely to have loudness wars mastering so it would pretty much take Chris Potter and Tony Cousins out of the equation.

If this was digitally remastered by Kevin Gray I'd be quite happy keeping my preorder.

If the results of doing it right weren't so damned good, I wouldn't care.

24 minutes ago, Braveheart said:

The code popmarket15 worked for me. If you like saving an additional 15% you should give it a try.

Apparently you can get 20% if you use SORRY20 - works out to get you No Code and Yield shipped for $39.99

I only ordered from Popmarket once, got the all analogue Beatles Mono set for about $260 and it was shipped immaculately and timely.

Decent pricing on the two new reissues today on Popmarket as well as the 5 7" singles
https://www.popmarket.com/collections/pearl-jam-vinyl-reissues-collection

Little more bad news this morning, both albums have analogue 1/2" masters but they went digital for the vinyl pressings. I'm not saying at all that digitally-sourced vinyl automatically sounds bad, just mourning the potential for an AAA pressing.

Hmm, time to re-evaluate exactly what I want here, may just go for the ASIH set to get the DVD and get downloads for the ANS stuff.

Feel like for vinyl fans, a huge potential here is going by the wayside. I'm sure they'll still sound "good" but I was really hoping they'd knock them out of the park.