EmmEff Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 Here's my current setup: Roksan Kandy MkIII integrated amp ASW Genius 100 speakers Pro-Ject TubeBox S phono preamp Pro-Ject RPM 1.3 Genie turntable w/Ortofon 2M Red cartridge Prior to earlier this week, I had an NAD C316 BEE integrated amp. Since putting the Roksan in my system, I am now hearing more than I have ever heard before. Unfortunately, that includes noise when playing records. I have confirmed there is no additional noise when streaming to my Airport Express, so I do not believe it to be a problem with the amp. Nothing else has changed in my setup and now every quiet spot when playing vinyl is riddled with noise that I will call static, but I don't believe it's from static electricity. The Ortofon 2M Red cartridge is now 18+ months old and was aligned to spec early last year (2014). It has been used heavily- let's say an average of 2h/day since new putting it conservatively close to 1100 hours. Can the increased noise be caused by stylus wear or cartridge misalignment? FWIW, the record I am playing is Alt-J "This Is All Yours" which has literally been played less than 10 times and has been cleaned as of today using my Spin Clean. Can anybody shed some light? TIA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cloudsbelow Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 i just (tried) to upgrade an amp and the phono stage was just noisy in my room.. interference of sorts, either from the power meter or the panel or plugs.. returned it and went back to my previous, lesser amp.. cause at least it was quiet. it could very well be that the phono stage is picking up some interference that your previous amp wasnt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smwalsh6 Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 it could very well be that the phono stage is picking up some interference that your previous amp wasnt. He has a separate phono stage, which he didn't replace. It could be something as simple as the difference in voicing between the amps. If the new amp has more forward highs you're going to hear more surface noise (if that is in fact what you are hearing). I hear more surface noise when using my solid state pre than I do with my tube pre, because the ss has a brighter high end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmmEff Posted April 9, 2015 Author Share Posted April 9, 2015 He has a separate phono stage, which he didn't replace. It could be something as simple as the difference in voicing between the amps. If the new amp has more forward highs you're going to hear more surface noise (if that is in fact what you are hearing). I hear more surface noise when using my solid state pre than I do with my tube pre, because the ss has a brighter high end. I suspect this is exactly what it is. At this point, I just want to ensure my TT is setup correctly enough to minimize it. I played a few more records tonight, after this post and some were admittedly better than others, but the old amp sure seems to hide a lot of this noise. Do you think a new/different cartridge can help me here? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tardcore Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 Dumb question...which input are you using? To elaborate...it looks like your new amp has an onboard MM phono input whereas your old one did not. If you are plugging your outboard phono pre into the phono input on your new amp...that's serious bad news. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmmEff Posted April 9, 2015 Author Share Posted April 9, 2015 Dumb question...which input are you using? To elaborate...it looks like your new amp has an onboard MM phono input whereas your old one did not. If you are plugging your outboard phono pre into the phono input on your new amp...that's serious bad news. I am using the "Line 2" input but fair question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allenh Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 He has a separate phono stage, which he didn't replace. It could be something as simple as the difference in voicing between the amps. If the new amp has more forward highs you're going to hear more surface noise (if that is in fact what you are hearing). I hear more surface noise when using my solid state pre than I do with my tube pre, because the ss has a brighter high end. This And welcome to the pain of upgrade and entry into the high end, It's either an input impedance mismatch or the old bright trick, or possibly your stylus is worn enough that the Roksan being more revealing is picking it up before the NAD would. The bright trick is a hifi trick so that things sound more detailed and are perceived as better, it used to be harder to get away with in the pre digital age because of record surface noise and tape hiss which are always a bit of a give away. Roksan are a very good maker of amplifiers so if it's this I'd say it's bad luck and not intentional on their part. Now because of the availability of a much lower noise floor in recording designers strive for ever more sensitivity in the front end which gives this effect, your NAD was a bit more classic in it's design so whilst not being anywhere near as revealing as the Roksan was a bit smoother and I'd bet a lot less fatiguing after a long listen in your current configuration, problem is you now know what should be there and going back to the NAD would be a backward step. Your Roksan though is obviously the better sounding bit of kit so the only option as always with these things is more upgrading, and on that I'd say if your Phono stage does low output MC go that way or as an intermediate go high output MC as an MC cart will be less in your face than an MM but show up all this extra music and more. If it's an impedance mismatch which does happen between Valve and Solid state stages you might need a buffer stage in between but this is probably the least likely. And of course it could just be a worn stylus but an upgrade to a nice new MC would sort this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmmEff Posted April 10, 2015 Author Share Posted April 10, 2015 In the short term, I am going to recheck the cartridge alignment to ensure it's still spot on. After that, I will get a new stylus or cartridge (probably the latter). I do have the option of returning the Roksan to my dealer, but at this point, like you said, allenh, I know what should be there now and going back to my NAD isn't high on my list. This Roksan does so much more with my speakers with so little effort- a much larger soundstage and just more overall umph. My phono stage does not handle LOMC cartridges, so it'll probably be either another MM cart or the Denon DL-110 (HOMC). I cannot afford to replace my phono stage now and I'd prefer not to as I really like the sound of this one and it's just 2 years old now. Thanks for your insight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heypeterman Posted April 10, 2015 Share Posted April 10, 2015 You have the Tube Box S, right? It most definitely can handle LOMC and quite well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allenh Posted April 10, 2015 Share Posted April 10, 2015 You have the Tube Box S, right? It most definitely can handle LOMC and quite well. I thought they did, start saving for a Benz Gold or something like that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmmEff Posted April 10, 2015 Author Share Posted April 10, 2015 You have the Tube Box S, right? It most definitely can handle LOMC and quite well. Good to know! I didn't realize that. I thought they did, start saving for a Benz Gold or something like that In all honesty, is it worth it putting this cartridge on this table? Not afraid to spend the money for quality, but if it the table can't "use" it, there's no point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tardcore Posted April 10, 2015 Share Posted April 10, 2015 have you tried plugging your turntable into the on board phono input on your integrated amp versus using the pro-ject pre? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allenh Posted April 10, 2015 Share Posted April 10, 2015 Good to know! I didn't realize that. In all honesty, is it worth it putting this cartridge on this table? Not afraid to spend the money for quality, but if it the table can't "use" it, there's no point. It was a bit of an off the cuff comment but your phono stage and amp seem to be pulling everything out of the current cart in this table so i wouldn't worry about trying it and to be fair the RPM 1.3 is one of the few arm and table combinations in the lower end of the Project range I think is a really good buy, mostly down to the arm I suspect. have you tried plugging your turntable into the on board phono input on your integrated amp versus using the pro-ject pre? Definitely worth a try if nothing else to eliminate an impedance mismatch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmmEff Posted April 11, 2015 Author Share Posted April 11, 2015 I tried the "phono" input on the Roksan tonight for the first time. Actually sounds pretty good, but has the same surface noise as my Pro-Ject Tube Box S. I was kinda glad it did because I certainly didn't want to give up its sweet sound that I've grow accustomed to. Next up, I will try realigning my cartridge... and then some time soon, I will replace it. Thanks again for everybody's insight and advice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tardcore Posted April 11, 2015 Share Posted April 11, 2015 I tried the "phono" input on the Roksan tonight for the first time. Actually sounds pretty good, but has the same surface noise as my Pro-Ject Tube Box S. I was kinda glad it did because I certainly didn't want to give up its sweet sound that I've grow accustomed to. Next up, I will try realigning my cartridge... and then some time soon, I will replace it. Thanks again for everybody's insight and advice. At least you eliminated a few possible issues. it sounds like your cart has a lot of miles on it, if the alignment checks out, I would suggest replacing it. another thing to look at is how clean your records are. a dirty record is really going to stand out with an upgraded setup. When I switched from my pro-ject debut carbon/2m red to a Marantz TT 15s1 with a Clearaudio Virtuoso, I was pretty much forced to step up to a VPI 16.5 cleaning machine. shit gets out of hand pretty quickly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allenh Posted April 11, 2015 Share Posted April 11, 2015 shit gets out of hand pretty quickly. Ain't that the truth, and then its oh bollocks my wallets empty again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmmEff Posted April 11, 2015 Author Share Posted April 11, 2015 another thing to look at is how clean your records are. a dirty record is really going to stand out with an upgraded setup. I have a Spin Clean now, but have am looking at my options for an upgrade there too. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woutout Posted April 14, 2015 Share Posted April 14, 2015 That 2m red is a very (surface) noisy cartridge. Pretty detailed for the price, but also thin in the midband. I've had about 12 different cartridges, and the best to kill surface noise is my current Goldring 1042 and the less impressive Grado Platinum Wood. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmmEff Posted April 15, 2015 Author Share Posted April 15, 2015 I ordered a Denon DL-110 to replace the Ortofon 2M Red today... couldn't beat the price ($175 CAD shipped or ~$140 USD). In all honesty, I have been very pleased with the 2M Red and would still consider getting the 2M Blue stylus sometime down the road. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woutout Posted April 15, 2015 Share Posted April 15, 2015 Try and save up for the Bronze or Black. The Blue is better than the Red, but the Bronze is a giant step up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmmEff Posted April 15, 2015 Author Share Posted April 15, 2015 Try and save up for the Bronze or Black. The Blue is better than the Red, but the Bronze is a giant step up. I briefly considered at least the Bronze but both are well out of my budget and before I put an $800 cartridge on a $500 TT, I will upgrade to a better turntable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xxmartinxx Posted April 17, 2015 Share Posted April 17, 2015 What are the settings on your Pro-Ject TubeBox S? Pro-Ject recommends input gain of 41dB, input capacitance 150pF, and input impedance of 47k ohms for your cart. You can always try adjusting the capacitance and impedance to find something more suitable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kannibal Posted April 18, 2015 Share Posted April 18, 2015 I ordered a Denon DL-110 to replace the Ortofon 2M Red today... couldn't beat the price ($175 CAD shipped or ~$140 USD). In all honesty, I have been very pleased with the 2M Red and would still consider getting the 2M Blue stylus sometime down the road. Good move. Ditch the 2M, you'll like the 110. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmmEff Posted April 19, 2015 Author Share Posted April 19, 2015 What are the settings on your Pro-Ject TubeBox S? Pro-Ject recommends input gain of 41dB, input capacitance 150pF, and input impedance of 47k ohms for your cart. You can always try adjusting the capacitance and impedance to find something more suitable. I cannot check right now, but I am not sure how these parameters being incorrect would cause an excess of surface noise. I've pretty much arrived at the conclusion that my new amp is far more revealing than my old and I am hearing surface noise that I never heard before but was always there. I have been meticulous about cleaning records (as much I can be with a Spin Clean) as of late. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmmEff Posted April 19, 2015 Author Share Posted April 19, 2015 Good move. Ditch the 2M, you'll like the 110. So I've heard... haven't installed it yet, but will soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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