Clemens says he was injected with lidocaine, B-12

[martyk36]

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/7597848?MSNHPHMA

What do you guys think?

[aarondanger]

i really liked roger when he played for the astros, but the dude is my dad's age and still throws a 97 mile fastball

[martyk36]

i really liked roger when he played for the astros, but the dude is my dad's age and still throws a 97 mile fastball

that's what I'm saying. I just don't understand how these dudes can live with themselves after lying (i'm mostly talking about bonds) but, c'mon.

[magalvsr13]

clemens has been my favorite pitcher for a long time but if the steroid allegations are true then im done with him.....its like i caught him cheating on me with HGH.

[mediocore]

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/7597848?MSNHPHMA

What do you guys think?

Hydrogen peroxide and horse semen.

[slymer]

And he was going downhill while on the Red Sox so they dumped him. Next thing you know he's winning Cy Young awards again. Guys don't have career years in their 40's.

[sgoodcore]

Only took him what, 3 weeks to figure that? What a joke.

[ronniethebear]

Guys don't have career years in their 40's.

Two words: NOLAN RYAN

I'm not defending Clemens at all, but it can be done.

[andrew13]

clemens is full of shit. he juiced, and he knows it. a lot of people named have come out and confirmed it's true, he should too. only reason he doesn't is because he knows his hall of fame career is done with.

[mattisr1984]

so tired of the steroid talk but personally i lean more towards him being full of shit. it seems like every single name thats denied it ends up being a liar. i just cant see how clemens would be any different. plus, this guy thats making the accusation was the same guy that injected pettite... and pettite never denied it. so the the trainer at the very least has knowledge of this stuff.

[mrc]

Im never a fan of any drug testing but i think it is needed to get these roids monkeys to clean up their act.

But who am i to say, i guess they chould make baseball more interesting by making every player in the league shoot up.

[flood]

Guys don't have career years in their 40's.

Two words: NOLAN RYAN

I'm not defending Clemens at all, but it can be done.

yeah seriously, nolan threw like 2 no hitters and was having 200 strikeout years multiple times in his 40s

[Guest baseball]

Two words: NOLAN RYAN

I'm not defending Clemens at all, but it can be done.

yeah seriously, nolan threw like 2 no hitters and was having 200 strikeout years multiple times in his 40s

Nolan Ryan's last 4-5 seasons followed a much more natural decline than Clemens

but you're right, Ryan had a pretty extraordinary career into his 40's

personally, i've thought Clemens was on PEDs for years

[flood]

does anyone else not care about the steroids?

ok so for decades now players took "greenies" which were essentially amphetamine pills for more energy or to wake up after a night of hard drinking or whatnot. And what about other performance enhancers? creatine? ephedrine? vitamins, supplements etc... its all the same shit.. some of it may be more effective but its all outside substances... and its not like say i can go shoot some steroids into my ass and tommorow morning im striking out A-rod. Bonds was a fucking monster player before he did anything. Clemens was the most dominant pitcher of our era before he did anything. These dudes were HOF calibre regardless of anything extra they took. Everyone is on something. all these dudes are on supplements and have trainers, and whatnot... but they had to be world class athletes to get to this point before hand.

look at ratings and attendance... steroids was the best thing to ever happen to baseball. and we all fucking knew it was happening... it renewed everyones interest. its entertainment. should we investigate actors for getting plastic surgery? i want to be entertained.. i wanna see superman pitcher throwing 98 to superman hitter who can knock the ball into the parking lot.

dear congressional committees... please investigate haliburton's war profiteering... it has a little more impact on our lives then whether or not roger clemens is on hgh.

[Guest baseball]

does anyone else not care about the steroids?

ok so for decades now players took "greenies" which were essentially amphetamine pills for more energy or to wake up after a night of hard drinking or whatnot. And what about other performance enhancers? creatine? ephedrine? vitamins, supplements etc... its all the same shit.. some of it may be more effective but its all outside substances... and its not like say i can go shoot some steroids into my ass and tommorow morning im striking out A-rod. Bonds was a fucking monster player before he did anything. Clemens was the most dominant pitcher of our era before he did anything. These dudes were HOF calibre regardless of anything extra they took. Everyone is on something. all these dudes are on supplements and have trainers, and whatnot... but they had to be world class athletes to get to this point before hand.

look at ratings and attendance... steroids was the best thing to ever happen to baseball. and we all fucking knew it was happening... it renewed everyones interest. its entertainment. should we investigate actors for getting plastic surgery? i want to be entertained.. i wanna see superman pitcher throwing 98 to superman hitter who can knock the ball into the parking lot.

dear congressional committees... please investigate haliburton's war profiteering... it has a little more impact on our lives then whether or not roger clemens is on hgh.

i am 100% with you on this point

these are some of the best athletes in the world competing for absurd amounts of money, of course they are going to try and gain an edge

cheating has always been a part of baseball and always will be and this elaborate witch hunt is neither interesting or effective at 'cleaning up' the game

whenever they add something that is tested for the players will just find something else that produces similar results...ok now they test for amphetamines, big deal...go look at how many players are now prescribed Adderrall or Ritalin for their "ADD" now

drug testing is ALWAYS futile, whether in sports or not

and i'm sick of all these moralist sportswriters writing these high and mighty pieces nowadays with unsubstantiated evidence

i've read plenty of studies on steroids and HGH and there's no conclusive evidence that either enhances performance as much as the media would like you to believe

it's just getting ridiculous, i actually read a column the other day where the writer said he was witholding judgment on Tim Raines going into the Hall of Fame because he wasn't sure if his admitted cocaine use in the 80's may have enhanced his speed on the basepaths...give me a break

i think players should be given good accurate information on how steroids affect your health (because there are serious risks) and that be the end of it...if they want to take the risks then let them, it's their choice and they're going to do it whether it's prohibited or not

and you said it best above, if people really cared that much then they wouldn't be buying the tickets to the games

hell, i think selling off the names of every stadium to the highest bidder or using taxpayer money to help filthy rich franchises like the Yankees to build these near billion dollar stadiums degrades the game more than baseball's 'drug problem'

[¯\_(ツ)_/¯]

Guys don't have career years in their 40's.

Two words: NOLAN RYAN

I'm not defending Clemens at all, but it can be done.

here, i'll give you more people who have done it who are still doing it and will continue to do it.

Randy Johnson (290 SO at age 40)

Kenny Rogers (42, but prior to last season he was still pitching 200 IN a season)

The Atlanta Trio of:

Tom Glavine

Greg Maddux

John Smoltz (14 - 8, 197 SO, 3.11 ERA at age 40!)

Mike Mussina (only 38... but he's been pitching 17 years now)

Curt Shilling (just turned 40, but may still come back for more years)

Jamie Moyer (44! minus his ERA he had a pretty good season!)

[Guest baseball]

Two words: NOLAN RYAN

I'm not defending Clemens at all, but it can be done.

here, i'll give you more people who have done it who are still doing it and will continue to do it.

Randy Johnson (290 SO at age 40)

Kenny Rogers (42, but prior to last season he was still pitching 200 IN a season)

The Atlanta Trio of:

Tom Glavine

Greg Maddux

John Smoltz (14 - 8, 197 SO, 3.11 ERA at age 40!)

Mike Mussina (only 38... but he's been pitching 17 years now)

Curt Shilling (just turned 40, but may still come back for more years)

Jamie Moyer (44! minus his ERA he had a pretty good season!)

you're missing the point

not a single one of those pitchers posted their BEST season (or career years) at age 42 like Clemens did

they all pitched well late in their careers but they all also exhibited a natural decline, whereas Clemens did the exact opposite

[cadetapplesauce]

uhhhh, i'd rather talk about the new american gladiators.

[¯\_(ツ)_/¯]

here, i'll give you more people who have done it who are still doing it and will continue to do it.

Randy Johnson (290 SO at age 40)

Kenny Rogers (42, but prior to last season he was still pitching 200 IN a season)

The Atlanta Trio of:

Tom Glavine

Greg Maddux

John Smoltz (14 - 8, 197 SO, 3.11 ERA at age 40!)

Mike Mussina (only 38... but he's been pitching 17 years now)

Curt Shilling (just turned 40, but may still come back for more years)

Jamie Moyer (44! minus his ERA he had a pretty good season!)

you're missing the point

not a single one of those pitchers posted their BEST season (or career years) at age 42 like Clemens did

they all pitched well late in their careers but they all also exhibited a natural decline, whereas Clemens did the exact opposite

Nolan Ryan didn't have any career years in his 40s... and clemens had 9 SEASONS better than what he had in 2004... the pitchers I listed all had "career years" at 40+ in the same sense that they were great years but not their best. same for clemens.

[Guest baseball]

you're missing the point

not a single one of those pitchers posted their BEST season (or career years) at age 42 like Clemens did

they all pitched well late in their careers but they all also exhibited a natural decline, whereas Clemens did the exact opposite

Nolan Ryan didn't have any career years in his 40s... and clemens had 9 SEASONS better than what he had in 2004... the pitchers I listed all had "career years" at 40+ in the same sense that they were great years but not their best. same for clemens.

career year implies best as far as i'm concerned, so we obviously have a different definition of the term

Rogers Clemens age 42 season was 2005, not 2004

1997 with Toronto was the closest Clemens came to matching 2005 (his career year)

ERA+ for some of the pitchers you listed

Clemens

Yr ERA+

96 - 139

97 - 221

98 - 174

99 - 103

00 - 130

01 - 128

02 - 102

03 - 112

04 - 146 Age 41

05 - 226 Age 42

06 - 193

07 - 107*

* - short season

Maddux

Yr ERA+

96 - 162

97 - 189

98 - 187

99 - 125

00 - 153

01 - 146

02 - 159

03 - 108 Age 37

04 - 109

05 - 104

06 - 109

07 - 98 Age 41

Randy Johnson

Yr ERA+

96 - 135*

97 - 196

98 - 135

99 - 186

00 - 181

01 - 188

02 - 197

03 - 110*

04 - 177

05 - 112

06 - 90

07 - 123*

* - injury shortened season

both Maddux and Randy Johnson show natural declines as they got older, as evidenced above

the only outlier is Randy Johnson's '04 season

look at Clemens...at age 41 he posted his best ERA+ since 1998 followed by two extraordinary season in '05 and '06

that is NOT a normal career path whatsoever

plenty of pitchers have good seasons in their 40's, but historically they do not do what Clemens did....couple that with the evidence against him as far as performance enhancing drugs are concerned and i think it's perfectly logical to assume he benefited from them

pitchers will always benefit from PEDs more than hitters because pitching is very recovery dependent and that's what PEDs enhance more than anything, the ability to recover

[mediocore]

Clemens

Yr ERA+

96 - 139

97 - 221

98 - 174

99 - 103

00 - 130

01 - 128

02 - 102

03 - 112

04 - 146 Age 41

05 - 226 Age 42

06 - 193

07 - 107*

* - short season

I was looking at these numbers yesterday, too. An ERA+ of 226 is phenomenal at any age, but at 42?!? And then to follow that up with 193 the next season?! Jesus christ.

[¯\_(ツ)_/¯]

i don't know what an ERA+ is. I know what an ERA is...

Maddux/Glavine > Clemens

I dont know if you have ESPN insider, so i'll just cut/paste this blog article

Appreciating Maddux, Glavine

posted: Wednesday, December 26, 2007 | Print Entry

In time, more names will come out, and some, like Roger Clemens, will have time to prove their innocence. But as we look askew at all the numbers and records and glory of "The Steroid Era," two men born three weeks apart in 1966, drafted in the same second round in 1984, and, ironically, paired for the infamous "chicks dig the long ball" commercial seem even greater today than they did when the 2007 season ended.

At this point in sports history, we cannot assume anyone's innocence, but no one has ever tied Greg Maddux or Tom Glavine to any scandal involving steroids, HGH or anything else. We have watched Maddux extend his career creating new pitches to mix with a fastball that on its good days hit 83 mph on the radar gun. And we have watched Glavine stoically speed-walk to 303 wins; only in the last two years has he adjusted to coming inside with his fastball and changeup and using his curveball better.

And here they are, without one question raised about whether or not they belong in Cooperstown. Before they retire in the next year or two, if they remain unquestioned, then their first-ballot elections may produce a higher percentage than one can now imagine. They will be held up as a couple of guys who won with resolution, creativity and guile in an era of power pitching and hitting.

If Clemens does not pitch again, Maddux in 2008 likely will get the eight wins he needs to surpass Clemens' career total of 354. Look, this is not a referendum on Clemens' staunch claim that he will prove the Brian McNamee testimony to George Mitchell to be false and that his 354 wins are unstained. But when Maddux first pitched in the majors in September of 1986, Clemens was already wrapping up his first Cy Young; since that debut, Maddux has actually won 39 more games than Clemens.

Since Glavine made his debut the following August, he has one more win than Roger, 303-302.

Granted, Maddux and Glavine pitched for some very good teams, but Maddux has won four Cy Young Awards, with one second- and two third-place finishes. Glavine has two Cy Young Awards, one second-place finish and two thirds, and he closed out the 1995 World Series with a one-hitter.

Maddux led the league in wins thrice, Glavine five times. Maddux led the league in innings pitched five straight years, from 1991 through 1995, and seven times led the league in games started. Glavine led the league in games started six times. Maddux won at least 15 games 17 years in a row and threw at least 200 innings 14 straight seasons. And those 2.18/2.36/1.56/1.63 ERAs in consecutive years in the mid-'90s, when offenses became inflated, are simply astounding. There was perhaps no one greater than Pedro Martinez during his prime in the American League East, but Maddux, at age 41, has stayed out there for all those innings to make his run at Clemens. If Maddux starts 10 games next season, he will have started more games than anyone but Cy Young, Nolan Ryan and Don Sutton. Warren Spahn, Steve Carlton and Eddie Plank are the only left-handers to have ever won more games than Glavine.

Cubs pitching coach Larry Rothschild maintains that Maddux may be the only pitcher who essentially invented two pitches -- the cutting fastball that rides either back over the inside corner to right-handed batters or over the outside backdoor corner to lefties -- as well as throwing the changeup inside, a practice that was taboo for generations. Ask Derek Lowe or Chris Young or any young pitcher who'll listen, and they'll tell you how Maddux changed the way they watch games, study hitters and pitch. He won 14 games last season for the Padres with stuff that most amateur scouts would classify as "Josh Towers -- tops."

This has been a trying time for those who care about the game. We don't know what's real and what isn't, who's lying and who's telling the truth, which rats are telling the truth they so long skirted.

We have judged players by their appearances, and in this time have watched Maddux and Glavine go from phenoms who threw in the 90s to guys who figured out somehow, some way to beat hitters while appearing like a couple of insurance salesmen playing golf at the country club. So, on a Christmas when too many lights have burned out and too many stars and ornaments seem to have fallen from the trees, it seems like the right time to put the careers of a couple of 41-year-olds in perspective, and appreciate that if any two players embody the good old days, they are Greg Maddux and Tom Glavine, Hall of Famers.

[slymer]

Guys like Maddux and Glavine have modified thier approach as they've gotten older as well, while neither were ever flame throwers. Randy Johnson is just a freak, although after his injury this year he may be done.

[mediocore]

i don't know what an ERA+ is. I know what an ERA is...

ERA+ is the ratio of the league's ERA to that of the pitcher (adjusted to the pitcher's ballpark). 100 is average.

It's a much more efficient way to determine a pitcher's true effectiveness than ERA, especially for comparative purposes.

ERA, Wins, etc. are all pretty worthless...

[mediocore]

i don't know what an ERA+ is. I know what an ERA is...

Maddux/Glavine > Clemens

I dont know if you have ESPN insider, so i'll just cut/paste this blog article

Appreciating Maddux, Glavine

posted: Wednesday, December 26, 2007 | Print Entry

In time, more names will come out, and some, like Roger Clemens, will have time to prove their innocence. But as we look askew at all the numbers and records and glory of "The Steroid Era," two men born three weeks apart in 1966, drafted in the same second round in 1984, and, ironically, paired for the infamous "chicks dig the long ball" commercial seem even greater today than they did when the 2007 season ended.

At this point in sports history, we cannot assume anyone's innocence, but no one has ever tied Greg Maddux or Tom Glavine to any scandal involving steroids, HGH or anything else. We have watched Maddux extend his career creating new pitches to mix with a fastball that on its good days hit 83 mph on the radar gun. And we have watched Glavine stoically speed-walk to 303 wins; only in the last two years has he adjusted to coming inside with his fastball and changeup and using his curveball better.

And here they are, without one question raised about whether or not they belong in Cooperstown. Before they retire in the next year or two, if they remain unquestioned, then their first-ballot elections may produce a higher percentage than one can now imagine. They will be held up as a couple of guys who won with resolution, creativity and guile in an era of power pitching and hitting.

If Clemens does not pitch again, Maddux in 2008 likely will get the eight wins he needs to surpass Clemens' career total of 354. Look, this is not a referendum on Clemens' staunch claim that he will prove the Brian McNamee testimony to George Mitchell to be false and that his 354 wins are unstained. But when Maddux first pitched in the majors in September of 1986, Clemens was already wrapping up his first Cy Young; since that debut, Maddux has actually won 39 more games than Clemens.

Since Glavine made his debut the following August, he has one more win than Roger, 303-302.

Granted, Maddux and Glavine pitched for some very good teams, but Maddux has won four Cy Young Awards, with one second- and two third-place finishes. Glavine has two Cy Young Awards, one second-place finish and two thirds, and he closed out the 1995 World Series with a one-hitter.

Maddux led the league in wins thrice, Glavine five times. Maddux led the league in innings pitched five straight years, from 1991 through 1995, and seven times led the league in games started. Glavine led the league in games started six times. Maddux won at least 15 games 17 years in a row and threw at least 200 innings 14 straight seasons. And those 2.18/2.36/1.56/1.63 ERAs in consecutive years in the mid-'90s, when offenses became inflated, are simply astounding. There was perhaps no one greater than Pedro Martinez during his prime in the American League East, but Maddux, at age 41, has stayed out there for all those innings to make his run at Clemens. If Maddux starts 10 games next season, he will have started more games than anyone but Cy Young, Nolan Ryan and Don Sutton. Warren Spahn, Steve Carlton and Eddie Plank are the only left-handers to have ever won more games than Glavine.

Cubs pitching coach Larry Rothschild maintains that Maddux may be the only pitcher who essentially invented two pitches -- the cutting fastball that rides either back over the inside corner to right-handed batters or over the outside backdoor corner to lefties -- as well as throwing the changeup inside, a practice that was taboo for generations. Ask Derek Lowe or Chris Young or any young pitcher who'll listen, and they'll tell you how Maddux changed the way they watch games, study hitters and pitch. He won 14 games last season for the Padres with stuff that most amateur scouts would classify as "Josh Towers -- tops."

This has been a trying time for those who care about the game. We don't know what's real and what isn't, who's lying and who's telling the truth, which rats are telling the truth they so long skirted.

We have judged players by their appearances, and in this time have watched Maddux and Glavine go from phenoms who threw in the 90s to guys who figured out somehow, some way to beat hitters while appearing like a couple of insurance salesmen playing golf at the country club. So, on a Christmas when too many lights have burned out and too many stars and ornaments seem to have fallen from the trees, it seems like the right time to put the careers of a couple of 41-year-olds in perspective, and appreciate that if any two players embody the good old days, they are Greg Maddux and Tom Glavine, Hall of Famers.

I don't think anyone's disputing that Maddux and Glavine are exceptional pitchers and belong in the Hall.

The argument was more about Clemens' ridiculous career arch.