nothnks Posted February 16, 2014 Share Posted February 16, 2014 I recently replace the needle on my cartridge, and I've been noticing that the cartridge has been or has gotten extremely close to dragging along my records. I have a Shure M44G cartridge and I have the N44G needle that pairs with it. I know those aren't super high quality products, but I didn't have this problem before I replaced my needle, and I've been noticing some light surface noise-like sounds on brand new records with this needle. I keep the tracking force around .75 grams, which is the recommended tracking force. Any ideas? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xxmartinxx Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 The recommended tracking force is between .75 and 1.5 grams. You're normally best off going with the high end rather than the low. Adjust to 1.5 grams and see what happens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donnelltech Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 If its almost dragging at .75 grams I'm guessing that increasing VTF is going to bottom out the cart even more... Its possible that the suspension on your new stylus is defective or was possibly damaged during installation. Given the low cost of the stylus I would probably replace it again and see if you get better results and/or see about getting a warranty replacement on the one you're having issues with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcguirk Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 If its almost dragging at .75 grams I'm guessing that increasing VTF is going to bottom out the cart even more... Its possible that the suspension on your new stylus is defective or was possibly damaged during installation. Given the low cost of the stylus I would probably replace it again and see if you get better results and/or see about getting a warranty replacement on the one you're having issues with. Yep, seems either the cantilever is toast or (extremely unlikely) you need a VTA adjustment. I would just buy a better cartridge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allenh Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 If the VTA is correct then it sounds like the suspension has given out, are you sure it is running at 0.75g? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xxmartinxx Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 Maybe he's running it at 7.5 grams? haha... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allenh Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 Maybe he's running it at 7.5 grams? haha... That would do it, cause of much trouble in the world the decimal point especially if you're a banker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcguirk Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 Good point. 7.5g is almost impossible to set but OP could be way overboard. Are you relying on the standard technique of floating the tonearm and adjusting the counterweight from there? Well don't, because it's imprecise. Pick up a cheap $15 digital stylus force gauge from Amazon and let us know what you're really running at. That gauge was one of my best purchases. For fussy cartridges like my Denon DL110 even .1 gram too much or too little force causes audible changes. That said, can you try backing off the counterweight 1.5-2 turns? What happens? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nothnks Posted February 21, 2014 Author Share Posted February 21, 2014 Yep, seems either the cantilever is toast or (extremely unlikely) you need a VTA adjustment. I would just buy a better cartridge. If I'm upgrading my cartridge, and I have a budget of $100, what would be my best option? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nothnks Posted February 21, 2014 Author Share Posted February 21, 2014 Good point. 7.5g is almost impossible to set but OP could be way overboard. Are you relying on the standard technique of floating the tonearm and adjusting the counterweight from there? Well don't, because it's imprecise. Pick up a cheap $15 digital stylus force gauge from Amazon and let us know what you're really running at. That gauge was one of my best purchases. For fussy cartridges like my Denon DL110 even .1 gram too much or too little force causes audible changes. That said, can you try backing off the counterweight 1.5-2 turns? What happens? Found a tutorial that could or could not have been trustworthy, and raised the stylus, so distance from the record is no longer an issue. 1.5-2 spins throws it way back heavy, but I probably was about .5 too high. Dialing it to somewhere in the neighborhood of 1 gram gets me that harsh s sound. Needle is probably toast? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcguirk Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 Maybe. By "raising the stylus," do you mean you adjusted the height of the tonearm on the vertical plane (aka vertical tracking angle)? If so, a VTA which is too high can cause sibilance and harsh treble. VTA is very sensitive and a little bit goes a long way. You can tell if VTA is the issue by throwing on the heaviest record you have or by doubling up your slipmat with a thin felt one. Both techniques will cause the cartridge to sit more nose-up which lowers treble response. If you adjust the counterweight just until it barely stays on a (crappy throwaway) record, is the stylus cantilever still bottomed out? I can say nothing but good words for the Ortofon 2M Red or the Denon DL110 if you have a preamp with a MC option. I see you're in good old Lancaster, only 25 mins from me. When you get a new cartridge, I'm happy to meet up and help you perform a cartridge alignment. It's always good to know you have things set up correctly. What kind of TT do you have? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nothnks Posted February 21, 2014 Author Share Posted February 21, 2014 Maybe. By "raising the stylus," do you mean you adjusted the height of the tonearm on the vertical plane (aka vertical tracking angle)? If so, a VTA which is too high can cause sibilance and harsh treble. VTA is very sensitive and a little bit goes a long way. You can tell if VTA is the issue by throwing on the heaviest record you have or by doubling up your slipmat with a thin felt one. Both techniques will cause the cartridge to sit more nose-up which lowers treble response. If you adjust the counterweight just until it barely stays on a (crappy throwaway) record, is the stylus cantilever still bottomed out? I can say nothing but good words for the Ortofon 2M Red or the Denon DL110 if you have a preamp with a MC option. I see you're in good old Lancaster, only 25 mins from me. When you get a new cartridge, I'm happy to meet up and help you perform a cartridge alignment. It's always good to know you have things set up correctly. What kind of TT do you have? Yep, but the VTA adjustment was something I had my friend do cause I was nervous and he insisted that he knew what he was doing, which at this point, I'm sure didn't. Still new to a majority of the terms you're using, but the stylus isn't hitting the records straight down now but more at an angle, so I think I'm just gonna go with a new needle and make him pay for it. I'll try this in the morning Compared to my cartridge, both of these look like they're from outer space I've only been at this for about 2 years, so at the moment, I have a TTUSB, which is inexpensive, and as far as lower end turntables, is isn't bad. Saving up some money, and I plan on getting a Debut Carbon. The rest of my set up is pretty good. I have a 5 piece set of Klipsch Speakers (don't know models) and a Yamaha RX-930 receiver. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
biodigitaljazz Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 I can say nothing but good words for the Ortofon 2M Red or the Denon DL110 if you have a preamp with a MC option. Got a Debut Carbon with an Ortofon 2M Red, and my preamp has an MC setting, but the Carbon manual says to do the MM setting... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
biodigitaljazz Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 You can tell if VTA is the issue by throwing on the heaviest record you have or by doubling up your slipmat with a thin felt one. Both techniques will cause the cartridge to sit more nose-up which lowers treble response. I've been just using the slipmat from my LP60 on the Carbon since the Carbon's slipmat was so flimsy. I didn't figure in how it would affect the tracking of the stylus. I've had an issue with my needle. Once I dropped it on the record without the record spinning, and another time, I was trying to recalibrate the weight on the back of the arm, and (clumsy) bumped the tone arm when it was free and it bounced across the record a couple of times. I'm paranoid that it's bent or damaged, but I don't know how to tell. I've experienced some Inner groove distortion but that was even before either of the previous incidents. Can anyone tell me how to tell if it's damaged without ruining a record? Should I buy a new cartridge to be safe? I'll definitely pick up one of those tracking gauges off Amazon, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcguirk Posted March 11, 2014 Share Posted March 11, 2014 If the stylus and cantilever are still attached then it's probably fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allenh Posted March 11, 2014 Share Posted March 11, 2014 Get a magnifying glass and have a good look at it, damage to the stylus or cantilever is pretty easy to spot as is suspension damage as it will sit too low, they are more robust than you think though so I would be surprised if you have done any real damage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
biodigitaljazz Posted March 11, 2014 Share Posted March 11, 2014 It sounds pretty good still, save for some IGD issues so I'll just assume it's not damaged. Thank you everybody for the responses, I've been eagerly awaiting them. I'm now onto the mystery of the IGD on some of my favorite records that I didn't have with my LP60. The whole cartridge system has always sat pretty low to the record from the first play, almost dragging on the record but just enough off it to not be touching. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
biodigitaljazz Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 What can be done about the Inner groove distortion issues? It's getting to be on every record. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tardcore Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 are you sure the table is set up correctly? I am not experienced enough to differentiate "inner groove distortion" from regular old distortion, but when I first got my table, I needed to run through the set up a few times to get it right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
biodigitaljazz Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 Well sir, it sounds crystal clear on the outsides of records, and makes vocals sounds like 96kbps mp3 towards the inner sides of 12" and on 7"s. It makes it sound like the vocals are all way topping out and the "S" sounds sound shitty, like there's more air in them, almost static through the speakers. From the research I've done it seems that this is the IGD. I only really notice it in vocals though. Everything else sounds pretty solid I think. It's exclusively on the last two songs of each side or so. Everything else sounds extraordinary. As for setting up I followed the instruction manual to a T quite a few times. I did some checking and found my table was not level, nor was the shelf it's on so I tried to make some adjustments in case the needle wasn't totally riding the grooves correctly, but I don't know how to adjust alignment on the Debut Carbon. EDIT: I am 100% getting a little shot of static in my speakers on near every "S" sound in the vocals. Is it possible that there's too much downforce? I didn't use a scale, I balanced and zero'd the counterweight on the arm like the book said to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allenh Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 Inner groove distortion can be caused by many things or a combination but the one certainty will be that it is setup, the only caveat being 2nd hand records that have been worn on the inner grooves by repeated playing on a poorly aligned turntable. You need to check overhang, alignment in all planes, anti skate and tracking force. I would invest in one of those acrylic plater mats that have a strobe printed on one side and a cartridge alignment protractor printed on the other, they are the equivalent of around $15 over here and I know they are available in the US, mine I got on ebay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kannibal Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 Your cartridge alignment is probably off. First I would try to fix that. If you still hear problems, you may just be hyper sensitive to IGD and you will need to upgrade your stylus or cart to something that tracks better. IGD drove me crazy when I bought my DebutIII years ago. I upgraded the cart and poof! All gone! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
biodigitaljazz Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 Thanks everyone for the posts I've been waiting. So hard to make such a huge investment and not get the perfect sound you're looking for. It's literally perfect and crystal clear except for the inner few songs. Downforce is set to 1.75g per the table manual for the Ortofon 2M r and anti skate is set accordingly. Allenh can you maybe link me to one of those mats? I don't know what to search for... Or how to even align the needle on the Debut Carbon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kannibal Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 I'm not allenh, but there is a great, free protractor on vinylengine.com. You have to sign up, but it's free, and anyone that own a turntable should have a account there. The thing I like about the protractor that I am referring to is, it shows you not just the null points of the three most popular alignments, but it also shows you where to put the first null point. This is missing from all the small protractors out there, and this protractor has helped me align many carts with ease and precision. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allenh Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 If you search the net there are quite a few about but kannibal is right the vinyl engine one is about the best and yes if you have a turntable you really need an account there as it's a mine of information, the platter mat one is convenient as it has a strobe on the other side. ebay item #400674103563 is the one I have although I paid a lot less for mine, I can't link it as it links through ebay UK which might be a bit confusing. That said it sounds like you need to do a fair bit of reading on the subject to make sure you understand the process and why the adjustments have the effect they do. Aligning the cartridge is the same regardless of turntable as you are working with circles and geometry and the alignment protractor is just doing all the hard maths for you and telling where to fix your cartridge to achieve the best compromise. Perfect alignment is impossible so there are 3 or 4 different curves used to achieve the best compromise and the null points kannibal is referring to are the points on the curve where alignment is correct Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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