NBA Discussion

[sgoodcore]

why do you think that, sammy? bill russel wouldn't be guarding jordan. teams with players like olajuwon, ewing, robinson, etc. couldn't hold back jordan-led teams. why would russel be any different?

don't get me wrong, dude's got the heart of a champion, but he played in a different era and had 9 different Hall Of Fame teammates on his rosters throughout his career. 11 championships is downright stupid, i give you that, but if you had magic and bill russel on a team, who would be the scorer? magic would give you 20-25, russel would give you 10-15. those two players would be the start of a really good team, but they would still need a bonafide scorer to push them over the top (in my opinion).

Well we're talking a team of 5, not a team of 2. And Jordan never played Hakeem in the finals. Oh and a good team could funnel Jordan in to a dominate shot blocker who would at least give him some trouble.

Just my opinion. I think the NBA Jordan played in was lacking in quality centers. I think most any of Jordan's teams would have gotten thrashed by a team with a quality center like Kareem, Wilt, Russell, Shaq in his prime, or Tim Duncan. Again, just what I think.

[travis]

There's no one Shaq's size either. He usually outweighs anyone he's playing by a good 25-35 pounds.

I knew this would be the response haha. There are guys that are as big/bigger than Shaq. He always played against guys that were much closer to his own size than the guys Wilt or Russel played against. Wilt and Russel played against guys who were a good 6 inches or more shorter than they were.

[danthemjfan23]

for comparison's sake:

lebron james: 6'8" 270 lbs.

bill russell: 6'9" 215 lbs.

tim duncan: 6'11" 248 lbs.

wilt chamberlain: 7'1" 275 lbs.

shaquille o'neal: 7'1" 325 lbs.

clearly russell's size advantage was a product of the era. today he would be an undersized and weak power forward, not an overpowering center.

[sgoodcore]

There's no one Shaq's size either. He usually outweighs anyone he's playing by a good 25-35 pounds.

I knew this would be the response haha. There are guys that are as big/bigger than Shaq. He always played against guys that were much closer to his own size than the guys Wilt or Russel played against. Wilt and Russel played against guys who were a good 6 inches or more shorter than they were.

Not when they played each other and in those situations Russell killed Wilt. And there's no one who was bigger than Shaq man. In height, maybe, but not in girth once he filled out a bit.

for comparison's sake:

lebron james: 6'8" 270 lbs.

bill russell: 6'9" 215 lbs.

tim duncan: 6'11" 248 lbs.

wilt chamberlain: 7'1" 275 lbs.

shaquille o'neal: 7'1" 325 lbs.

clearly russell's size advantage was a product of the era. today he would be an undersized and weak power forward, not an overpowering center.

Again, just to make the point, Russell beat Wilt like 9 times.

[travis]

why do you think that, sammy? bill russel wouldn't be guarding jordan. teams with players like olajuwon, ewing, robinson, etc. couldn't hold back jordan-led teams. why would russel be any different?

don't get me wrong, dude's got the heart of a champion, but he played in a different era and had 9 different Hall Of Fame teammates on his rosters throughout his career. 11 championships is downright stupid, i give you that, but if you had magic and bill russel on a team, who would be the scorer? magic would give you 20-25, russel would give you 10-15. those two players would be the start of a really good team, but they would still need a bonafide scorer to push them over the top (in my opinion).

Well we're talking a team of 5, not a team of 2. And Jordan never played Hakeem in the finals. Oh and a good team could funnel Jordan in to a dominate shot blocker who would at least give him some trouble.

Just my opinion. I think the NBA Jordan played in was lacking in quality centers. I think most any of Jordan's teams would have gotten thrashed by a team with a quality center like Kareem, Wilt, Russell, Shaq in his prime, or Tim Duncan. Again, just what I think.

I think its pretty safe to say Jordan was the best player of all time. I dont know too many people that would argue that. Jordan played against quality teams but I dont think the fact that anyone was lacking a big man would change his game at all. Dude was a knock down shooter when he had to be. No one has ever been more clutch (possibly in any sport). I have no doubt Jordan could drive the lane and be successful against ANY center. Shaq, Karrem, Russel, Wilt, Howard, Hakeem. He was basically unstopable. Shut down the lane and he pulls up and knocks down jumpers, play him close and he runs right by u.

[travis]

I knew this would be the response haha. There are guys that are as big/bigger than Shaq. He always played against guys that were much closer to his own size than the guys Wilt or Russel played against. Wilt and Russel played against guys who were a good 6 inches or more shorter than they were.

Not when they played each other and in those situations Russell killed Wilt. And there's no one who was bigger than Shaq man. In height, maybe, but not in girth once he filled out a bit.

for comparison's sake:

lebron james: 6'8" 270 lbs.

bill russell: 6'9" 215 lbs.

tim duncan: 6'11" 248 lbs.

wilt chamberlain: 7'1" 275 lbs.

shaquille o'neal: 7'1" 325 lbs.

clearly russell's size advantage was a product of the era. today he would be an undersized and weak power forward, not an overpowering center.

Again, just to make the point, Russell beat Wilt like 9 times.

Yao is much bigger than Shaq, that ugly white dude from Portland was at least as big as Shaq in height and weight. There were guys out there that were his size, he still out muscled them tho.

[sgoodcore]

Well, I still say Jordan was the best scorer but I won't say he was the best player. That's just me. And to me, Jordan's team would have zero ability to guard a guy like Shaq. Meaning Shaq would negate Jordan's scoring and probably slow down the game too.

[danthemjfan23]

Well we're talking a team of 5, not a team of 2. And Jordan never played Hakeem in the finals. Oh and a good team could funnel Jordan in to a dominate shot blocker who would at least give him some trouble.

Just my opinion. I think the NBA Jordan played in was lacking in quality centers. I think most any of Jordan's teams would have gotten thrashed by a team with a quality center like Kareem, Wilt, Russell, Shaq in his prime, or Tim Duncan. Again, just what I think.

MJ never played olajuwon in the finals but he played all those guys in the regular season. jordan-led teams were WAY over .500 against every team in the regular season. every single team. there's a reason the only 2 championships the rockets won came during jordan's retirement. the dude owned the league, whether you like him or not.

and as far as a good team funneling jordan into a center to block shots, i provide you these two facts:

1. jordan played in the league for 14 years. if it were that easy, teams would have just done it. (i know, here's your "he played in a weak-center-era in the NBA" argument, but 3 centers that played during jordan's career were named the NBA's 50 greatest players of all time, so i would have to disagree with that argument anyway).

2. jordan was a perimeter player. of course he is remembered as a dunker, but his game was as a jump shooter. if a center went out to guard him shooting an 18-ft jump shot, he'd drive right around him and dunk it. if the center left him out there to shoot (as he should since a center shouldn't be guarding MJ anyway), he'd drill the jumper all day, as is evidenced by his 30.1 ppg career average - the NBA all-time record.

[sgoodcore]

Shaq was a youngin' during Jordan's career so that doesn't count. And David Robinson was eh. Duncan is a better player. Hakeem was the only one near the class of Kareem, Wilt, Russell, and Shaq.

[danthemjfan23]

Again, just to make the point, Russell beat Wilt like 9 times.

and again, just to make mine, bill had 9 hall of fame teammates on his side. wilt played for 8 different head coaches on 4 different teams in his career. kinda hard to learn a system and execute it when there's a new guy running the show every 2 years.

[danthemjfan23]

shaq's rookie year was 1992. he was in his 4th year when MJ came back and raped the league winning 72 games. he was in his 5th year during the bulls next championship season (a 69-win campaign). he was in his 6th year during MJ's last season as a bull, and their 6th championship.

how much older did you want him to be?

[sgoodcore]

Oh common, Wilt played most of his game with Jerry West by his side. Baylor also played with Wilt during the first three years during his five years with the Lakers. Those Lakers teams were damn good teams.

[sgoodcore]

shaq's rookie year was 1992. he was in his 4th year when MJ came back and raped the league winning 72 games. he was in his 5th year during the bulls next championship season (a 69-win campaign). he was in his 6th year during MJ's last season as a bull, and their 6th championship.

how much older did you want him to be?

Okay dude whatever. Your's is the only opinion that's valid because Jordan was other-wordly and never to be doubted. He could beat anyone in a game of one-on-one and he can walk on water. Fact is, Shaq was traded to the Lakers for the 96-97 season and his side-kick was Nick Van Exel. Tough team the Lakers had there, scary.

To me, the Lakers of the 80s would have killed Jordan's Lakers, absolutely dismantle them. I think the Lakers with Shaq and Kobe would have played Jordan's Bulls teams extremely competitively as well. I think they would have had a shot to beat them in a seven game series.

[danthemjfan23]

so baylor was a great player during his first three years, but shaq was "too young" during his? you can't argue out of both sides of your mouth here, sammy...

and he was only teammates with jerry west (who lost 8 times in the NBA finals, by the way... some "mr. clutch") 5 seasons. russell had a core of superstars around him his entire career. if you want me to list them all off, i will, but i'd need to go take a nap first to conserve enough energy to type out that many names...

[sgoodcore]

Baylor was in his last three years, not his first.

And I just don't buy the argument that somehow Bill Russell's skills are diminished because he played with other great players, I don't care who they are.

[danthemjfan23]

Okay dude whatever. Your's is the only opinion that's valid because Jordan was other-wordly and never to be doubted. He could beat anyone in a game of one-on-one and he can walk on water. Fact is, Shaq was traded to the Lakers for the 96-97 season and his side-kick was Nick Van Exel. Tough team the Lakers had there, scary.

To me, the Lakers of the 80s would have killed Jordan's Lakers, absolutely dismantle them. I think the Lakers with Shaq and Kobe would have played Jordan's Bulls teams extremely competitively as well. I think they would have had a shot to beat them in a seven game series.

don't get all blaize about this because i'm negating your arguments with facts. this has nothing to do with me being a jordan fan. you can throw that out the window because i'm making arguments about other players, too, based on the history of the game. i know what i'm talking about.

and if i'm not mistaken, the bulls 'dismantled' the lakers in the nba finals when they met 4 games to 1. it was at the beginning of the bulls' run, and the end of the lakers' run. if they met in each of their primes, i'm sure it would be a close series, but i still think the bulls would win.

but this whole argument started on the hypothetical situation of picking two players from any era and putting them together. i picked YOUR man magic, and MY man michael because i think that combination would stifle any defense and be versatile enough to be a great start of a ballclub. arguing about whose team would beat whose is irrelevant in the context of this conversation.

[danthemjfan23]

I just don't buy the argument that somehow Bill Russell's skills are diminished because he played with other great players, I don't care who they are.

i haven't once said this. he was great during his time, i've agreed with that. but 6'9" 215 pounds or whatever wouldn't carry over in today's game.

i was defending wilt, not knocking bill, when i said russell played with hall of famers while wilt played with less talent. it's obvious how great bill russell was during his time, and there's something to be said about winning with all that talent. look at the yankees the past 9 years. they've had the best talent in baseball (arguably) and haven't won shit. you still need to execute, and bill russell's teams always did. i'm just saying, arguing that wilt wasn't as good as bill because he didn't win championships isn't really a fair assessment of either of their abilities.

[sgoodcore]

Okay dude whatever. Your's is the only opinion that's valid because Jordan was other-wordly and never to be doubted. He could beat anyone in a game of one-on-one and he can walk on water. Fact is, Shaq was traded to the Lakers for the 96-97 season and his side-kick was Nick Van Exel. Tough team the Lakers had there, scary.

To me, the Lakers of the 80s would have killed Jordan's Lakers, absolutely dismantle them. I think the Lakers with Shaq and Kobe would have played Jordan's Bulls teams extremely competitively as well. I think they would have had a shot to beat them in a seven game series.

don't get all blaize about this because i'm negating your arguments with facts. this has nothing to do with me being a jordan fan. you can throw that out the window because i'm making arguments about other players, too, based on the history of the game. i know what i'm talking about.

and if i'm not mistaken, the bulls 'dismantled' the lakers in the nba finals when they met 4 games to 1. it was at the beginning of the bulls' run, and the end of the lakers' run. if they met in each of their primes, i'm sure it would be a close series, but i still think the bulls would win.

but this whole argument started on the hypothetical situation of picking two players from any era and putting them together. i picked YOUR man magic, and MY man michael because i think that combination would stifle any defense and be versatile enough to be a great start of a ballclub. arguing about whose team would beat whose is irrelevant in the context of this conversation.

Oh please, don't start with this line of BS of "I'm arguing facts" you're arguing "opinions." You're saying Bill Russell couldn't play today which has nothing to do with facts.

I simply stated I think Magic and Russell would be an equally difficult combo. To that I'll I've heard is Russell couldn't play in today's NBA. I just don't agree. Seeing some of the things you all have pointed out I might be incline to change my Magic/Russell combo to be Magic/Shaq. But to me, personally, I think a big man in the middle + a great point guard is better than the same point guard and a wing player.

[kurtz]

So I was having this debate on Facebook with my friends.

If you could pick any 2 players to build a team around who would you pick?

All time - Jordan/Magic (In my opinion the 2 best players ever)

Current - Kobe/LeBron (In everyone's opinion the 2 best players in the game now)

All time - Jordan/Shaq (both in their prime of course)

Current - Kobe/Duncan

I would want both a shooter and a dominant big man on whatever team I'm starting.

Just my opinion. I think the NBA Jordan played in was lacking in quality centers.

I would argue that Jordan played in an era that possibly had the most quality centers. He played against Shaq, Hakeem, Ewing, Robinson, Zo, & Mutombo all in the prime of their careers. He also played against Kareem and Moses Malone late in their careers. And also other quality centers (although they may not have been all stars) like Smits, Daugherty and Divac. I can't think of an era that had that many good centers. Certainly not today's NBA.

[sgoodcore]

Jordan never played against a dominate team with a dominate man in the middle. The Lakers with Kareem in the 80s and the Celtics with Parrish in the 80s were example of teams with dominate big men who were dominate teams.

[danthemjfan23]

ahahaha oh sammy you just lost alllll credibility calling robert parrish a "dominant" big man.

[danthemjfan23]

i love you, sammy, really i do, but come on.... robert fucking parish?

this dude?

come on.

[sgoodcore]

The dude who won, what, three championships and is among the leagues top 50? Yep, that guy.

I don't know why you have to belittle my opinion. It doesn't lessen yours. I think the NBA Jordan played in was mediocre at best. That's my opinion on the matter.

[kurtz]

Jordan never played against a dominate team with a dominate man in the middle. The Lakers with Kareem in the 80s and the Celtics with Parrish in the 80s were example of teams with dominate big men who were dominate teams.

During Jordan's first three-peat, Ewing's Knicks were a pretty damn good team.

I guess he did retire though when Hakeem's Rockets and Shaq's Magic were both at their best.

[danthemjfan23]

7'1" 250 lbs. should get you a lot more than 14.5 points, 9.1 rebounds, 1.4 assists and 1.4 blocks per game, don't you think?

if there was that exact same player with those exact same stats in today's game, people would call him "weak" and "soft" without hesitation.

here's somebody else's stats, for comparison:

7'1" 245 pounds

13.2 points, 6.3 rebounds, 1.4 assists, 0.7 blocks, 3 championship rings

does that make him dominant?

no, it makes him this guy: