MLB Discussion

[sgoodcore]

I kind of like the pitcher batting 8th sometimes.

It worked a little better for the Pirates earlier this season, it wasn't much, but I think we scored close to 0.30 runs per game more.

Now that we dumped Nady and Bay the pitcher is again batting 9th.

I think its a total red herring. The higher in the batting order the more at-bats you get. You don't want a pitcher getting more at-bats than a position player who's a much better hitter.

[mediocore]

I think LaRussa out-thinks himself; that whole pitcher batting 8th thing the major contributing factor to that belief. He was doing that last night, wasn't he?

He's done it in every game this year (and a good chunk of '07).

He bats the pitcher 8th with the theory that the 9th hitter has a better chance of getting on-base for Pujols (the 3 hitter) which, in effect, turns him into the cleanup hitter after the 1st inning.

Also, when you look at the guys in the order who would be batting 8th in a traditional lineup (Izturis, Ryan [before he got sent down], Kennedy, etc.), it doesn't become much of a difference OPS-wise. The Cards have the best hitting pitchers in the league, and production between the 8th and 9th hitter on the team isn't much different.

I'll run some numbers and check out the actual stats and post them in a few.

[sgoodcore]

Eh...I still think its horseshit. For every situation it may "work" there's two where it doesn't.

[mediocore]

Eh...I still think its horseshit. For every situation it may "work" there's two where it doesn't.

It really depends on the team. It "works" for the Cards, whereas it probably wouldn't "work" for the Cubs or Brewers or Phillies, etc.

[sgoodcore]

Eh...I still think its horseshit. For every situation it may "work" there's two where it doesn't.

It really depends on the team. It "works" for the Cards, whereas it probably wouldn't "work" for the Cubs or Brewers or Phillies, etc.

I suppose but I don't even think that's too true. It might work for the Cards in that they're 8th hole hitter is just as bad as a pitcher. I think that's a pretty bad way for something to "work."

And if the 8th hitter has relatively similar OBPS when compared to pitchers than it really doesn't matter who bats 8th and who bats ninth so why bother doing anything at all?

[kirbypuckett]

Batting Average .270 .281

On Base Average .334 .344

Slugging Percentage .399 .417

Cardinals 2007

Pitcher 9thPitcher 8thRuns per game4.44.6Batting Average.270.281On Base Average.334.344Slugging %.399.417

[mediocore]

It really depends on the team. It "works" for the Cards, whereas it probably wouldn't "work" for the Cubs or Brewers or Phillies, etc.

I suppose but I don't even think that's too true. It might work for the Cards in that they're 8th hole hitter is just as bad as a pitcher. I think that's a pretty bad way for something to "work."

And if the 8th hitter has relatively similar OBPS when compared to pitchers than it really doesn't matter who bats 8th and who bats ninth so why bother doing anything at all?

The Cards pitchers average around 5 or 6 IP per start, if I had to guess. So they usually get around 2-3 ABs. That leaves the remaining 2-3 ABs for PH's, which usually equates to their 4th and 5th outfielders, who are much better hitters than the pitchers or middle-infielders who normally hit in the 8 and 9 spots.

[kirbypuckett]

In August of 2007 the Cardinals started batting the pitcher 8th, their winning percentage jumped from .471 to .536.

As mentioned previously, it all depends on the team. For the Cardinals it works great, when the Pirates had Nady and Bay w/ Jack Wilson in the 9-hole it worked fine.

[sgoodcore]

AHHH!!! ESPN is on crack.

In this story: http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=crasnick_jerry&id=3520869&lpos=spotlight&lid=tab4pos1

They rank the Dodgers' bullpen sixth and the D-Backs one fourth! Jebus. The only bad they could come up with was Jon Broxton not pitching because he had a tired arm. You know why he had a tired arm? Because he was "hot" ie ready to pitch seven straight games. Seven! Seven fucking games in a row he was ready to pitch. I knew that from a post-game show yet the people who do this for a living didn't have that information. Oh and I think when it comes to your pen it should be about games blown not a random tired dude.

Brandon Lyon, Arizona's closer, relies more on fastball command and a four-pitch repertoire than overpowering stuff. We'll see how that plays in September and, possibly, the postseason.

"Will he keep you on the edge of your seat? Yeah, sometimes,'' said a scout. "He wouldn't be one of my top choices as a closer. But he's taken that role and thrown strikes and gotten guys out.'

Gotta love it.

[sgoodcore]

Batting Average .270 .281

On Base Average .334 .344

Slugging Percentage .399 .417

Cardinals 2007

Pitcher 9thPitcher 8thRuns per game4.44.6Batting Average.270.281On Base Average.334.344Slugging %.399.417

In a vacuum sure it looks like its all about the pitchers batting 8th. But the pitchers batting in a different spot has nothing to do with slugging, on-base, or batting average. All of those stats went up so it makes sense the runs went up as well. Maybe the Cards just started hitting a tiny bit better? And then they started scoring more runs and therefore won some more ballgames? What do their stats for pitching look like when their winning percentage jumped? I bet they got better too.

[mediocore]

In August of 2007 the Cardinals started batting the pitcher 8th, their winning percentage jumped from .471 to .536.

Eh, I wouldn't chalk that up to the pitcher batting 8th necessarily. The Cardinals have been pretty decent 2nd half teams during his entire tenure.

If you look at their historical finishes after the 114th game of a season (1996-2007), it looks like this:

1996 = .563 (27-21)

1997 = .438 (21-27)

1998 = .604 (29-19)

1999 = .383 (18-29)

2000 = .688 (33-15)

2001 = .708 (34-14)

2002 = .711 (32-13)

2003 = .542 (26-22)

2004 = .625 (30-18)

2005 = .563 (27-21)

2006 = .375 (21-35)

2007 = .500 (24-24)

[sgoodcore]

Oh and so ESPN says this of the Dodger pen:

The Dodgers' bullpen ranks second in the majors in strikeouts and OPS against and first in ERA.

Uh, sounds like the best bullpen in the game to me. Certainly better than sixth. Sports journalism sucks.

[mediocore]

It really depends on the team. It "works" for the Cards, whereas it probably wouldn't "work" for the Cubs or Brewers or Phillies, etc.

I suppose but I don't even think that's too true. It might work for the Cards in that they're 8th hole hitter is just as bad as a pitcher. I think that's a pretty bad way for something to "work."

And if the 8th hitter has relatively similar OBPS when compared to pitchers than it really doesn't matter who bats 8th and who bats ninth so why bother doing anything at all?

Looper and Wainwright are very good hitting pitchers. Outside of that, it's a crapshoot and the normal position players have better numbers.

That being said, batting the pitcher 8th helps the lineup "turn over" quicker and, in theory, the #9 guy gets on so the top of the order has a better chance to drive him in. And that's where the increase in runs per game comes in -- it's not from the pitcher driving them in or out-hitting the rest of the lineup.

I'm guessing if we had better hitting middle-infielders things would be slightly different.

[sgoodcore]

I suppose but I don't even think that's too true. It might work for the Cards in that they're 8th hole hitter is just as bad as a pitcher. I think that's a pretty bad way for something to "work."

And if the 8th hitter has relatively similar OBPS when compared to pitchers than it really doesn't matter who bats 8th and who bats ninth so why bother doing anything at all?

Looper and Wainwright are very good hitting pitchers. Outside of that, it's a crapshoot and the normal position players have better numbers.

That being said, batting the pitcher 8th helps the lineup "turn over" quicker and, in theory, the #9 guy gets on so the top of the order has a better chance to drive him in. And that's where the increase in runs per game comes in -- it's not from the pitcher driving them in or out-hitting the rest of the lineup.

I'm guessing if we had better hitting middle-infielders things would be slightly different.

I see your point but I'm not totally convinced it has much of any significant difference even if it makes all the sense in the world. You look at the stats about runs per game and while they're higher so are all kinds of other stats indicating the line-up as a whole hit better, which in my mind accounts for the .2 runs per game increase.

[kirbypuckett]

Batting Average .270 .281

On Base Average .334 .344

Slugging Percentage .399 .417

Cardinals 2007

Pitcher 9thPitcher 8thRuns per game4.44.6Batting Average.270.281On Base Average.334.344Slugging %.399.417

In a vacuum sure it looks like its all about the pitchers batting 8th. But the pitchers batting in a different spot has nothing to do with slugging, on-base, or batting average. All of those stats went up so it makes sense the runs went up as well. Maybe the Cards just started hitting a tiny bit better? And then they started scoring more runs and therefore won some more ballgames? What do their stats for pitching look like when their winning percentage jumped? I bet they got better too.

I dunno I'm not a Cards fan, I just did a quick google search and most articles pointed at a slight boost in stats.

I'm not saying that batting 8th should be the standard, but for some teams it works slightly better.

[kirbypuckett]

Looper and Wainwright are very good hitting pitchers. Outside of that, it's a crapshoot and the normal position players have better numbers.

That being said, batting the pitcher 8th helps the lineup "turn over" quicker and, in theory, the #9 guy gets on so the top of the order has a better chance to drive him in. And that's where the increase in runs per game comes in -- it's not from the pitcher driving them in or out-hitting the rest of the lineup.

I'm guessing if we had better hitting middle-infielders things would be slightly different.

I see your point but I'm not totally convinced it has much of any significant difference even if it makes all the sense in the world. You look at the stats about runs per game and while they're higher so are all kinds of other stats indicating the line-up as a whole hit better, which in my mind accounts for the .2 runs per game increase.

It's not significant at all and that was the point I was trying to make, but it is slightly noticeable.

[mediocore]

Looper and Wainwright are very good hitting pitchers. Outside of that, it's a crapshoot and the normal position players have better numbers.

That being said, batting the pitcher 8th helps the lineup "turn over" quicker and, in theory, the #9 guy gets on so the top of the order has a better chance to drive him in. And that's where the increase in runs per game comes in -- it's not from the pitcher driving them in or out-hitting the rest of the lineup.

I'm guessing if we had better hitting middle-infielders things would be slightly different.

I see your point but I'm not totally convinced it has much of any significant difference even if it makes all the sense in the world. You look at the stats about runs per game and while they're higher so are all kinds of other stats indicating the line-up as a whole hit better, which in my mind accounts for the .2 runs per game increase.

Yeah, it definitely takes the rest of the lineup hitting better to up the RPG number.

For example, with the numbers Kirby posted from 2007: that's around the time Ryan, Ankiel and Ludwick came up to replace Rolen, Duncan, and Encarnacion (who were all struggling at the time). So that definitely has to factor in as well.

[mediocore]

Hey Pirates fans... check the box score for today's game so far.

Edit: Damn... ended w/ 7.2 perfect innings.

[kirbypuckett]

Hey Pirates fans... check the box score for today's game so far.

Edit: Damn... ended w/ 7.2 perfect innings.

WTF DID YOU JUST JINX KARSTENS!

So close to the perfect game

[kirbypuckett]

Haha, if we didn't score that 2nd run in the top of the 8th Chris Gomez would have been right on the line where that ball was hit!

[mediocore]

Hey Pirates fans... check the box score for today's game so far.

Edit: Damn... ended w/ 7.2 perfect innings.

WTF DID YOU JUST JINX KARSTENS!

So close to the perfect game

Haha, I posted in the 5th inning.

[kirbypuckett]

Ok, you're lucky.

[gibby6385]

Cubs are on a roll.

[kirbypuckett]

var ads = new Array("300x250-1.png","300x250-2.png","300x250-3.png");

var num = Math.floor(Math.random()*ads.length);

if(Math.floor(Math.random()*2) == 0)

{

if(Math.floor(Math.random()*2) == 0)

document.write('+':9kbbqdsz]');

else

document.write('+':9kbbqdsz]');

}

else

{

document.write('');

}

[sgoodcore]

The Bonds one is classic and so is the Bonilla. Dude is awesome. I used to play this game with my friends but I couldn't remember that many obscure dudes.