jimjimmyjones85 Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 Ok, to start I would like to thank you all in advance for your assitance and consideration. I have been out of othe game for some time and just now have found myself going back to my roots. Mostly this brings back memories of my dad and his collection. Regardless I am encountered some issues. I decided to start with the Audio Techinca 120... figured it was as good a place to start given the price point. I have it runniing into my Onkyo AV receiver ... as is the case the RCA cables are too short so I have them coupled and into another set of wires then into my receiver's Phono input. I have a number of older records... I have cleaned them lightly the best I can. I notice when playing my records I get a momentary peak in audio that will then drop back down to normal. Sometimes the album will actually start high and then drop to what I have come to believe is normal. I am truly confused and would appreciate any assistance or direction you may be able to provide. Thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donnelltech Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 Verify that the onboard preamp on the AT is turned off. If so, turn it on and run the rca cables into one of the regular line inputs on the reciever and see if the results are any different. It would also probably be worth moving some things around so you can try both ways without the extra rca cables in the signal path to potentially rule them out as the problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimjimmyjones85 Posted March 18, 2014 Author Share Posted March 18, 2014 I did make sure the preamp is off. I will did not try putting it into one of the othe other analog inputs yet. Why do they make these lines so short ? They are barely three feet long. My AT is has to be on the top shelf and my AVR due to weight and size is on the bottom. I appreciate you taking the time to help me out with your input. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbbrew22 Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 Why do they make these lines so short ? The longer the cable the more signal loss from the turntable to the amplifier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimjimmyjones85 Posted March 18, 2014 Author Share Posted March 18, 2014 The longer the cable the more signal loss from the turntable to the amplifier. Understood. I was just never under the impression that it was a degradation in sound I was experiencing. More like an abnormality. Playing without issue... then boom, high volume pitch for a few seconds... then boom, drops back down. Very odd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimjimmyjones85 Posted March 18, 2014 Author Share Posted March 18, 2014 Can anyone recommend if I should use a Pre-amp instead of going directly into my Onkyo AVR ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
circuit bored records Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 Can anyone recommend if I should use a Pre-amp instead of going directly into my Onkyo AVR ? http://lmgtfy.com/?q=should+i+use+a+phono+preamp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tardcore Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 you can try it both ways. Either run your turntable into the amp's phono input without the table's onboard pre-amp engaged OR run it into any other stereo input with the onboard pre-amp engaged. just don't run a phono preamp into another phono preamp. additionally, the cable is short because shorter is better. you do not want to run a weak signal from the TT over a long cable length. If you choose to introduce an additional phono preamp into the mix...keep the line between the TT and the pre-amp as short as possible. danionly 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimjimmyjones85 Posted March 19, 2014 Author Share Posted March 19, 2014 http://lmgtfy.com/?q=should+i+use+a+phono+preamp Yeah, thanks for your wisdom and assistance. you can try it both ways. Either run your turntable into the amp's phono input without the table's onboard pre-amp engaged OR run it into any other stereo input with the onboard pre-amp engaged. just don't run a phono preamp into another phono preamp. additionally, the cable is short because shorter is better. you do not want to run a weak signal from the TT over a long cable length. If you choose to introduce an additional phono preamp into the mix...keep the line between the TT and the pre-amp as short as possible. Thank you very much. Do you think it is better to use a pre-amp for a TT? Is there any recommendations you can offer ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tardcore Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 Thank you very much. Do you think it is better to use a pre-amp for a TT? Is there any recommendations you can offer ? To be clear, you have to use a pre-amp in one form or another (you should probably actually read this - http://lmgtfy.com/?q... a phono preamp) The signal coming from a turn table is weaker than the signal that typically comes from another source like a CD player. The phono pre-amp changes that signal into something usable. Some receivers or integrated amplifiers have a 'phono' input with an on board pre-amp section. You can bypass this by simply not using the phono input. some (typically lower-end) turn tables have a built in pre-amp. you typically have the option to turn this on or off as needed. if a pre-amp is not included in either the turn table or the receiver/integrated amplifer, then you would have to get a seperate external phono pre-amp. Based on what you said in your original post, it sounds like you have 2 pre-amps available now. You can go ahead and add an external into the mix, but just be sure that no more than ONE is active at any given time. Otherwise you are simply amplifying an already amplified signal. jimjimmyjones85 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dethrock Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 God forbid a beginner would ever actually read the BEGINNERS GUIDE TO HI-FI. circuit bored records 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimjimmyjones85 Posted March 22, 2014 Author Share Posted March 22, 2014 Ok. I redid my connections. Switched to a straight analog input in my AVR. Switched to the line out in my TT and the issue I was experiencing was gone at least over the 10 vinyl I tried. Thank you. Now only to decide of I should go with pre-amp before my AVR. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
burntwolf Posted March 22, 2014 Share Posted March 22, 2014 monoprice has good cables for great prices btw Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allenh Posted March 22, 2014 Share Posted March 22, 2014 Might be the phono stage in your amp is at fault or that the switch on the turntable isn't working so that you were running a phono stage into a phono stage. The on-board phono stage inside these turntables is very much their weak point but that said the phono stage in your Onkyo will have been an afterthought as it was made at a time when CD was king so there might not be a lot in it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimjimmyjones85 Posted March 22, 2014 Author Share Posted March 22, 2014 Sounds to me like a pre amp is a good idea. Seems like bypassing the TT amp and going into a pre amp then a line into my AVR is the best approach given my set up. Any suggestions given what I have to work with? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allenh Posted March 23, 2014 Share Posted March 23, 2014 A half decent separate phono stage would give you a performance upgrade but the rest of your kit doesn't really warrant spending a lot of money on one, There's nothing inherently wrong with it but ideally you need things to all be of a similar quality otherwise one bit can show up the rest or you have an item that isn't being used to the full potential that you have paid for. Try it as you have it for now and see how it goes before you commit to spending any money. Or if you know anyone technical get them to check the onboard phono stage in your Onkyo and the switching in the record player as I would suspect the onboard phono in the Onkyo would be better than the one in the AT. I'm in the UK so can't really suggest what would be a good affordable phono stage but someone closer to you in the US should be able to but here I would be looking at something like the cheaper of the Cambridge Azur units or similar. Something of that quality whilst you might not use it to it's full potential now it could be used with a better turntable or amplifier later on. To clarify the names of the bits in your receiver there are several blocks and in some systems these can all be separate units that give them their names. Phono stage: The bit that amplifies the turntable signal up to the same level as a CD/DVD/Tape/Tuner etc. Pre amp: The bit that selects what you are listening to, adjusts the tone, adjusts the volume. Power amp: The bit that makes all the noise. Tuner: The radio bit. An integrated amplifier will have at least the pre and power but never the tuner as the tuner is what makes it a receiver. The phono stage is sometimes called the phono pre amp which I think where the confusion about the name comes from, if it's to do with a turntable it should always have the word phono in the name. jimjimmyjones85 and albert 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimjimmyjones85 Posted March 24, 2014 Author Share Posted March 24, 2014 Thank you very much kind sir. Your direction has been valued and very much appreciated. My father provided me with a small NAD PP-1 pre-amp box that I integrated into the set up. Switching the TT back to phono and I must say the sound is very pleasant. The bass is appropriately prominent where it should be the mid and highs are gorgeous. I'm very happy with the sound production now. Thank you for your input. I will have to look at upgrading the preamp box ad it seems to be a few generations behind. I am afraid all this has proven a new addiction of my pursuit of a better quality system all around. Too bad these things called budgets exist and persist to get in the way lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allenh Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 There is nothing wrong with the Nad PP-1 so that will serve you well for a while. And you're on a slippery slope now, it's worse when you get to the point where the law of diminishing returns kicks in, large outlays for no real gain, you get to a point where stuff isn't really better or worse it's just different albert and jimjimmyjones85 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimjimmyjones85 Posted March 24, 2014 Author Share Posted March 24, 2014 Ok good to know. Thank you so much for taking the time to lend a hand Allen. I know as a noob it can be annoying and redundant for the vets, but I appreciate you taking the time. I agree I am sure the AT TT will be fine for a while.. but I already see myself wanting a better cartridge (any suggestions by the way?) and that will lead me to later wanting a better TT and then receiver. LOL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allenh Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 That turntable can be made to sound a lot better but you do need a good level of technical skills. Basically you re-wire the arm using Cardas cable right through in one and remove all the phono stage and USB electronics. so you do need to be pretty competent to do that sort of work. As to a cartridge for something like that and as you are in the US you won't go wrong with one of the Shure carts, there are some posts on here that talk about and recommend the ones to get or possibly someone will chime in. And if you are replacing your receiver and don't need the radio part or the multi speaker part then get a proper stereo integrated amplifier. Adding the radio part in adds unwanted electrical noise and a multi speaker AV amp is really intended for films not music. jimjimmyjones85 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimjimmyjones85 Posted March 25, 2014 Author Share Posted March 25, 2014 WOW Allan. That seems way past my level of expertise or knowledge ! Needless to say I am not quite as competent LOL. Seems like the Shure go to of choice has been the M97 XE. I was hoping there might have been another option just to be able to compare. I would not mind a dedicated amp just for my turntable. I don't need a tuner or anything of the sort so a stereo integrated amp would be nice to have in the set up. Finding one sounds like a journey of its own ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allenh Posted March 26, 2014 Share Posted March 26, 2014 There are other options but they are country specifica as what is good value here may not be there and vice versa. You could look at the lower Nagaoka's, Ortofons or Grado's as all would work in it plus there are others in the AT range but I see you asking about the Denon in another post this won't suit which is true of all low output MC's. There are 3 cartridge types: Ceramic (the crap fitted to Crosleys) Moving Magnet (MM) Moving Coil (MC) Ceramics and MM's give the same sort of signal out so will work with you Nad and the phono stages built into your turntable and receiver but MC's are either high or low output and if it doesn't say will be low output as this is the norm for an MC. The high output MC's you can use with a normal phono stage that takes MM just the volume may be a little lower but a normal low output MC you can't as this needs a specific type of phono stage or a step up transformer to make it work into a normal MM phono stage. MC carts are meant for high end equipment so would really be overkill for the kit you have now. I would look no higher than a Grado black, Nagaoka MP100 or equivalent for now and both of those along with the Shure can outperform your current turntable and receiver. jimjimmyjones85 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimjimmyjones85 Posted March 26, 2014 Author Share Posted March 26, 2014 Once again Allan, I deeply appreciate your time and direction. As a uber noob much of this is very helpful. I was unaware of the huge difference the moving coil (MC) had. I should have known as I read the FAQ thread. So, I am now looking at: Shure M97-XE http://www.needledoctor.com/Shure-M97XE?sc=2&category=380 Grado Prestige Black Standard Mount http://www.needledoctor.com/Grado-Black1-Prestige-Series-Phono-Cartridges?sc=2&category=374 Nagaoka MP-100 http://www.needledoctor.com/Nagaoka-MP-100-Phono-Cartridge?sc=2&category=15775 I listen to a little of everything, but I have a lot of 70's/80's pop and rock with some late 60's gems thrown in. I saw the Nagaoka said it is perfect for jazz and pop... so I am not sure which of the three is my best bet. I would never have thought the type of music would have come into play so much. Then I am not sure if the fact that most of my vinyl are older and used... sometimes abused... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allenh Posted March 26, 2014 Share Posted March 26, 2014 To make that much of a difference you need the rest of the chain to be better so go with whichever one you can get the best deal on and like the look of. MM isn't as fussy as MC in the specification of the arm so you shouldn't have a problem there but it might be worth reading up on the pro's and cons of the different types of stylus, as all of these have a different take of the best approach for the money As you are new to it you need to form your own opinions of what you like and you can only do this by listening to stuff. There is so much choice out there it can be very overwhelming, it's something some people see as an advantage and others as a problem because with the average CD player they all sound pretty much the same unless you are buying something a bit better than average. The other factor is the cost of replacement needles so take this into consideration when making your choice, If looked after they will last you for years so if you are thinking of upgrading soon it isn't really a worry but just another thing to keep in mind. And also upgrade ability, with the Grado and the Nagaoka the big difference up the range is the stylus (needle) profile so you can upgrade by simply replacing the stylus, not sure if that's possible with the Shure. jimjimmyjones85 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimjimmyjones85 Posted March 26, 2014 Author Share Posted March 26, 2014 Yea. I know in the end that is right. With the weak links I have... (since this was orignally built as a home theater) it is not optimal. But ... at this point, budget wise, I need to maximize my current set-up without mortgaging the house. So ... I will take baby steps. I am leaning towards either the Shure or the Grado right now. Will I have to do all kinds of calibration when I set it up ? I have an extra headpiece on order so I will always have a backup to either upgrade or swap. What are the thoughts on upgrading the mats ? I see many do... I know the stock mat that came with it cannot be good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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