Just got a AT LP120 for Christmas, have sound issues, need some help

[CurrrBell]

Hi. First off, I'm a complete noob with respect to vinyl so I apologize if I use terminology incorrectly (I'm doing my best!). I got an AT LP120 for Christmas and after setting it up, I was a little disappointed when I fired it up for the first time. I was getting a lot of splattering in the high end frequencies, particularly with "s" sounds in vocals, stuff like that. I upped the weight on the tone arm to the max specified for the cartridge that came with the turn table after the person who gave it to me suggested that perhaps the needle wasn't fully picking up the grooves, but this hasn't seemed to help. I've tried outputting the sound through speakers and headphones, also to no avail. The records I'm using are also brand new, so they shouldn't be the source of the problem either. I know this table isn't exactly high end, but surely it's supposed to sound better than this, right? I'd appreciate any ideas on how to improve things

[youspinmeround]

1) Nobody know what it sounds like or what records you are listening to

2) You just got a record player and are commenting on high and low end frequencies?? When I see threads like this I think someone read a little too uch of the steve hoffman forums

3) It could be other components that you are playing it through

4) You could be used to a more compressed version or mp3 through headphones

 

Probably need some details on your setup, your records and a clip

[ForSunday]

Bit of a douchey reply while barely reading their post there, congrats.

 

Currrbell:

 

The S sound issue you hear is sibilance and means you need to align the cartridge, you can get printable protractors to put on you platter to align your cartridge. Bring the  VTF back down to middle of the range this isn't the answer. Have you balanced the the tonearm and set the weight correctly? If you are unsure youtube it, you have an sl-1200/1210 clone so those will work for guides too.

 

Here's a couple of links:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jizk-3JGzag

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJelRnSv1Kk

 

Feel free to ask any questions.

[CurrrBell]

1) Nobody know what it sounds like or what records you are listening to

2) You just got a record player and are commenting on high and low end frequencies?? When I see threads like this I think someone read a little too uch of the steve hoffman forums

3) It could be other components that you are playing it through

4) You could be used to a more compressed version or mp3 through headphones

 

Probably need some details on your setup, your records and a clip

 

 

Am I wrong thinking that "s" sounds are composed of a lot of high-end frequencies? Once again, sorry if I'm being inaccurate, I was just trying to give a description of what's happening. 

 

As for my setup, the table has a built-in preamp so I'm sending it straight into a pair of AKG K240s. 

 

Here's an example of what I'm talking about:

 

https://soundcloud.com/chris-bell-146/lp120-test

 

I can produce other examples if need be

 

EDIT:

 

 

Bit of a douchey reply while barely reading their post there, congrats.

 

Currrbell:

 

The S sound issue you hear is sibilance and means you need to align the cartridge, you can get printable protractors to put on you platter to align your cartridge. Bring the  VTF back down to middle of the range this isn't the answer. Have you balanced the the tonearm and set the weight correctly? If you are unsure youtube it, you have an sl-1200/1210 clone so those will work for guides too.

 

Here's a couple of links:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jizk-3JGzag

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJelRnSv1Kk

 

Feel free to ask any questions.

 

Thanks for the suggestion, I actually saw some info about aligning the cartridge before coming here but the place I was reading from made no mention of the problem I'm having. I'll give it a shot and report back.

[youspinmeround]

That didn't sound too bad on my phone

but it was a 9 second clip

[youspinmeround]

I am not being a douche but it's pretty hard to trouble shoot something that you can't hear nor see

[CurrrBell]

I realigned the cartridge using some of the resources you linked, and it hasn't made a noticeable difference in the sibilance. I did some more research on the topic and found that evidently the problem can be caused by numerous other things, including the cartridge just being shitty, but I haven't found much evidence that this cartridge (AT95E) commonly has this sibilance problem. Another person suggested that the problem can be caused by the vinyl itself, though many other people apparently dispute that. That being said, of the two records I have to test with, the sibilance is much more noticeable on the Queen record. Here's the entirety of "Killer Queen":

 

https://soundcloud.com/chris-bell-146/killerqueenfull

 

To my ears, there's little to no improvement. 

[allenh]

It does sound like its most likely cartridge related be that bad set up or bad cartridge so you need to re check everything as tomsdubs says but as you say the AT95 isn't usually that bad at this. Play around with the VTA, bias. overhang and tracking force, if it's cartridge or geometry related you can dial it out to a certain degree with having off of centre VTA but this will be masking another problem and not ideally a cure, some cartridges like off of centre VTA but the AT95 isn't one of them.

 

Another thing to consider is are you using the on board phono stage in that you have the switch on the back set to line because these are utter crap and will not help.

 

One thing with sibilance is that if it's geometry rather than electronics related it gets worse as you get nearer into the centre of the records so on the inner tracks.

[slinch]

youspinmeround tested it on his phone, so clearly it's just you and the issue doesn't really exist... 

 

But seriously, everything you mention could be the cause of this, and all of it probably is. The LP120 is not a good table. The internal wiring and electronics are bad. The integrated phono stage is horrible. The cartridge is sub par as well. When you put all of these together, of course the end result cannot be good. Also, it's very possible that the pressing itself has problems.

 

The bottom line: vinyl is an expensive hobby and there are no shortcuts here unfortunately. If you want good sound you need good equipment. It's impossible to get around that.

[ForSunday]

To be honest he's got a tricky LP to track there with Mercury's vocals, I've never used that cart but maybe it's at its limits performance wise. It could be the LP. Listen to a few LPs with high pitched vocalists and see how they sound. For what it is worth you want to be using baerwald protractor and make you print it to the same scale. Using that it also ended exactly where my overhang should be.

 

slinch: That table is fine, plenty good enough. I think you are massively exaggerating. It has zero to do with the circuits. Slap a better cart on it and it will be perfectly good for playback, they can always mod it to bypass the internal preamp circuit and have a reasonable sl-1200 clone.

[slinch]

slinch: That table is fine, plenty good enough. I think you are massively exaggerating. It has zero to do with the circuits. Slap a better cart on it and it will be perfectly good for playback, they can always mod it to bypass the internal preamp circuit and have a reasonable sl-1200 clone.

 

 

Why would you even need to mod it to bypass the preamp circuitry if it has zero to do with the circuits?

 

I guess it boils down to what your definition of "plenty good enough" is. That recording up there might be plenty good enough to some. 

[ForSunday]

Why would you even need to mod it to bypass the preamp circuitry if it has zero to do with the circuits?

 

I guess it boils down to what your definition of "plenty good enough" is. That recording up there might be plenty good enough to some. 

 

 

To stop the signal running through circuits full of resistors and capacitors it doesn't need to, if you can't grasp how that would help then I don't think you are knowledgeable enough to be commenting on the tables' performance. I wonder if you even know the performance spec of that table. The guy has a problem with sibilance not audio performance, you seem to find this hard to grasp. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt for now.

 

Out of interest, what turntable do you use and with what cart?

[slinch]

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt for now.

Oh, why thank you kind sir

 

To stop the signal running through circuits full of resistors and capacitors it doesn't need to, if you can't grasp how that would help then I don't think you are knowledgeable enough to be commenting on the tables' performance.

Don't you think that that's why I mentioned it in the first place?  I was simply explaining why the LP120 isn't a good table.

 

The guy has a problem with sibilance not audio performance, you seem to find this hard to grasp

 

Sibilance is audio performance as well. Very hard to grasp, I agree. And if you listen to his clip, sibilance isn't the only issue either.

 

Out of interest, what turntable do you use and with what cart?

Clearaudio Solution, Grado Prestige Gold. Not the best, but gets the job done*.

 

*VC trademark statement

[ajxd]

Lol at slinch and his flea market setup.

[ForSunday]

Oh, why thank you kind sir

 

Don't you think that that's why I mentioned it in the first place?  I was simply explaining why the LP120 isn't a good table.

 

 

Sibilance is audio performance as well. Very hard to grasp, I agree. And if you listen to his clip, sibilance isn't the only issue either.

 

Clearaudio Solution, Grado Prestige Gold. Not the best, but gets the job done*.

 

*VC trademark statement

 

It isn't an audio performance issue, it's a set up issue that they need help with. The AT-LP120 is a 1200 clone that is perfectly capable of playing a record flawlessly so drop the stupid fucking attitude. I don't know what it is about this forum and people like you with shitty attitudes but I guess this is why this place is avoided. You are the classic sad idiot with big fish small pond syndrome, telling people how their tables are poor. Why not post something useful? You were completely incorrect in your first statement, deal with it and move on.

[ajxd]

Maybe it's time you moved on there buddy.

Your attitude is not wanted, and you are incorrect.

Goodbye!

[allenh]

Well that escalated quickly!

 

I think I need a bigger hand bag for this forum

[ForSunday]

[circuit bored records]

There's no need to argue gents, we are all men of reason here. tomsdubs, not sure if you haven't been around these parts long, but slinch is (usually) one of the lesser-sarcastic and most helpful posters for newbies to this forum (he wrote the beginners guide to hifi on the top of this forum for pete's sake, which I can't believe hasn't been brought up for the OP at this point in the thread). So cool down man.

For me, I think it's hard to sincerely answer this OP's questions with patience in a thread like this, at this point it is extremely common for a new poster to start a thread and ask "I just got [insert entry-level equipment here] and it sounds really bad! Why is that?" Once you've seen and answered 100 other users same exact questions, it gets to a point where I either stop posting for a while or just want to tell people to get different equipment. I think slinch fell victim to the latter category.

Anyway, every issue that could be cause for the OP's symptoms has been brough up at this point and I hope he is able to figure it out, albeit having to deal with some slight hostility along the way. Personally from what I read I think what he is hearing are limitations of the at95e, if he were to upgrade it I don't think he would be hearing the same problems. Either that or his copy of that queen album is worn out.

[ForSunday]

There's no need to argue gents, we are all men of reason here. tomsdubs, not sure if you haven't been around these parts long, but slinch is (usually) one of the lesser-sarcastic and most helpful posters for newbies to this forum (he wrote the beginners guide to hifi on the top of this forum for pete's sake, which I can't believe hasn't been brought up for the OP at this point in the thread). So cool down man.

For me, I think it's hard to sincerely answer this OP's questions with patience in a thread like this, at this point it is extremely common for a new poster to start a thread and ask "I just got [insert entry-level equipment here] and it sounds really bad! Why is that?" Once you've seen and answered 100 other users same exact questions, it gets to a point where I either stop posting for a while or just want to tell people to get different equipment. I think slinch fell victim to the latter category.

Anyway, every issue that could be cause for the OP's symptoms has been brough up at this point and I hope he is able to figure it out, albeit having to deal with some slight hostility along the way. Personally from what I read I think what he is hearing are limitations of the at95e, if he were to upgrade it I don't think he would be hearing the same problems. Either that or his copy of that queen album is worn out.

 

 

Yeah I got a bit annoyed at the reply but I'm cool about it, this guy needs help and I don't understand why people need to take bad attitudes with it. Just make a quick post pointing them in the right direction is the easiest way to deal with it. The 95e probably is at its limits here and that Queen LP might well be well played, that's why I suggested testing with some other LPs to prove the alignment. Stylus wear is eliminated I guess because it is new. Hopefully Currrbell gets to the bottom of the problem.

[kannibal]

As one of the resident assholes, I thought I'd chime in here. I'm actually going to side with tomsdubs here. I happen to think that the LP120 is a fine starter table. Yeah, it has a sub par phono stage, but if you're buying an LP120 in the first place, is it really going to cause you a lot of heartache? I doubt it. A properly set up and undamaged LP120 shouldn't have excessive sibilance.

Another thing to keep in mind, let's be careful of crapping on possible Christmas gifts. There's no way I would have received something that cost as much as an LP120 when I was younger, and we don't know people's situations.

As for Slinch, dude, you've been recommending powered speakers in a few threads. POWERED SPEAKERS! C'mon, man!

Concerning the Queen LP, if this is a reissue, the Queen I and II recent represses don't sound very good. My friend has one and he asked me a similar question and when I heard it I told him he must have a bad pressing, but after some research, it seems like the whole batch sounds sub par.

But there is also set up/cartridge alignment or possible stylus damage to check for as well. Inspect the needle for dust or a bent stylus. Also try other records. If it's on all records, it's definitely a hardware issue. And it may be best to exchange it instead of trying to fix it with limited knowledge.

[CurrrBell]

Hey guys, 

 

I really appreciate all the suggestions. I've been going through boxes of old records from the attic to help test things out and while I haven't been able to completely get rid of all the sibilance, it is now far less prominent than when I made my OP. The problem really seems to be on a case-by-case basis; some records have none to speak of, while some are pretty bad (Sheer Heart Attack still has issues all over it, "Sussudio" is pretty bad, etc.). From what I see in this thread it seems that it's a combination of many things, which makes sense, but I think fixing the alignment of my cartridge has done a lot. It doesn't seem like eradicating the problem will be a quick fix, as I don't have the equipment to get around using the built in preamp, but I'm pretty content where I'm at right now. It'll just be a kind of ongoing process for me I think, which I'm fine with. Anyway, thanks for all the info, I've learned a lot!

[allenh]

It'll just be a kind of ongoing process for me I think, which I'm fine with. Anyway, thanks for all the info, I've learned a lot!

 

Hifi is always an ongoing process. You change something to fix a problem only to introduce another problem

 

I'm also of the opinion that there's nothing fundamentally wrong with the AT120 or the AT95 apart from the on board phono stage but you might well have got to it's limitations.

 

Sibilance in re presses can be a problem as can worn records so trial and error will help.

 

You have a reasonable start point to build on but always remember all of your equipment ideally needs to be of a like quality otherwise you might not get the est out of the expensive thing you've added into your system.

 

You don't say what you are using as an amplifier or speakers so that can have a bearing, e.g. If you are using cheap powered or computer speakers you may find they are not helping, the top and the bottom are always the hardest to reproduce accurately in audio.

 

Also did you read the bit about it getting worse on the inner tracks and does it?

[slinch]

As one of the resident assholes, I thought I'd chime in here. I'm actually going to side with tomsdubs here. I happen to think that the LP120 is a fine starter table. Yeah, it has a sub par phono stage, but if you're buying an LP120 in the first place, is it really going to cause you a lot of heartache? I doubt it. A properly set up and undamaged LP120 shouldn't have excessive sibilance.

Another thing to keep in mind, let's be careful of crapping on possible Christmas gifts. There's no way I would have received something that cost as much as an LP120 when I was younger, and we don't know people's situations.

As for Slinch, dude, you've been recommending powered speakers in a few threads. POWERED SPEAKERS! C'mon, man!

Concerning the Queen LP, if this is a reissue, the Queen I and II recent represses don't sound very good. My friend has one and he asked me a similar question and when I heard it I told him he must have a bad pressing, but after some research, it seems like the whole batch sounds sub par.

But there is also set up/cartridge alignment or possible stylus damage to check for as well. Inspect the needle for dust or a bent stylus. Also try other records. If it's on all records, it's definitely a hardware issue. And it may be best to exchange it instead of trying to fix it with limited knowledge.

 

That's because you're an asshole

 

But seriously, I don't get the hate for powered speakers. On a tight budget they're THE best bang for buck. If you give me $500 to spend and has to be new, no way I'm splitting that between passive speakers and an amp, I'll take some active monitors any day of the week. Even in high-end gear, active is often the way to go. Offer me some ATCs or B&Ms and I'll throw out everything I have.

 

And I agree that crapping on gifts is shitty (I wouldn't have received something that costs as much a s a crosley even), but I think it's fair to explain the limitations of budget equipment. He may very well have reached the point where the performance is at its max and still be disappointed by it. It doesn't help to just advise tinkering with the setup and ignore the fact it just might be that that's the most you can get out of that gear.

[Mhumbach]

I agree with the comments about the pressing also the cartridge. I received a lp120 as a gift years ago, if you ever plan on upgrading it I'd recommend the Nagaoka Mp-110 cartridge for that setup.