ketchupnmustud Posted August 26, 2012 Share Posted August 26, 2012 The police not being able to take one man down with fewer than 3 shots, is the real problem here, not the media. in this case, ya the police being trigger happy is the real problem. in the bigger picture, there are a lot of problems with our country, the media doesnt always help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harryq Posted August 26, 2012 Share Posted August 26, 2012 I would say EMTs, paramedics, lifeguards, toll booth operators, cable repair guys, mailmen - all more thankless jobs than cops just to name a few. I would also say they all deserve a thanks much more than police officers, especially trigger-happy big city cops who shoot innocent bystanders. really? EMTs, paramedics, and (to a lesser extent) lifeguards seem to be well-respected and appreciated. I don't recall any songs called "EMT Killer" or "Fuck Tha Paramedics" (too many syllables?), nor are they often portrayed as corrupt and/or incompetent in movies. mailmen are important and get hated on a bit, yeah, but aside from "going postal" and dog attacks, it's not like it's a high risk job. and the other two are a joke (relative to being a cop), which I suppose kinda works to support my claim...? in this case, two cops who hadn't fired their guns in their 15 years on the job had a guy pull a gun on them in a crowded setting, and responded by shooting him 16 times -- hitting him 10 times -- in a matter of seconds. dude had just killed a guy, so you kinda gotta take personal and public safety into consideration. did they need to shoot 7 and 9 times, respectively? maybe not, but I'm a grad student, not a cop in post-9/11 new york, so what do I know? did some innocent people get hit by fragments or ricocheted bullets? yeah, but blaming that on the cops rather than the dude who killed a guy and pulled a gun on them in a crowded city street seems kinda silly, though I'm sure some lawyers will disagree and as for why this got so much media coverage, I figured it was because "2 dead, 9 injured during shooting at empire state building" got people thinking "terrorism" or something, only to realize that it was just a guy who had a year long beef with another guy he worked with at a place near the empire state building, followed by police taking him down while incurring some collateral damage. reminds me of that quote by the joker in the dark knight: "Nobody panics when things go 'according to plan.'" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hankmurphy Posted August 26, 2012 Share Posted August 26, 2012 you kinda gotta take personal and public safety into consideration. Is that what the police did before opening fire into a crowd of people? Is it wrong to expect an ounce of bravery from our police; that instead of them risking innocent lives to save their own, they would instead try to talk down the man with the gun? Also, I'm pretty sure there are no songs called "Fuck Tha Paramedics" because paramedics don't have a stop-and-frisk policy that they can use to hassle ordinary people. Paramedics also didn't chase down Ramarley Graham and murder him in his bathroom. I have also never heard a story of paramedics forcibly committing their own for trying to uncover corruption in the organization, like the NYPD did to Adrian Schoolcraft. When American citizens are protesting, is it paramedics that beat them, mace them, and trample on their rights? It wasn't paramedics that fired their gun into an occupied house in Detroit, killing seven-year-old Aiyana Jones, and it wasn't paramedics that murdered Andrew Lee Scott for opening his front door. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GradedOnACurve Posted August 26, 2012 Share Posted August 26, 2012 There is a politicized element to the police because they enforce laws....whether the law is right or wrong. That said I had an Aunt and an Uncle (married to each other) who worked for the NYPD (Detective and Street Crime Uncle, and my Aunt did general patrolling) but had some interesting views of police because they're both African-American. Lots of racist cops and those who generally love to abuse their power. I feel the same way. There are good cops, bad cops, and everything in between. There are also policies some don't like to enforce (stop and frisk is bullshit) and some who will go out of their way to arrest/ticket/summons/berate somebody. There are people who believe police do no wrong and then there are the police who ruin peoples lives. Who in NYC could forget Amadou Diallo and Abner Louima? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ketchupnmustud Posted August 26, 2012 Share Posted August 26, 2012 two cops who hadn't fired their guns in their 15 years on the job had a guy pull a gun on them in a crowded setting, and responded by shooting him 16 times I assume you mean in their 15 years they've not shot at someone, cause u make it sound like they have never fired their guns before. i hope that isnt the case because if it is, bullshit. cops need to be trained how to use their guns effectively and properly. i cant imagine what its like being a cop in new york post 9/11 but if i were a cop, i wouldnt be so liberal with my ammunition. im not saying they shot the civilians on purpose, im just saying im sure colateral damage could have been prevented. there is a city next to where i live. in the past 5 years, their police force has been under much scrutiny due to their use of their guns. one officer shot a kid who was holding a butter knife, he was shot in the back numerous times which wasnt necessary. a year or so later an officer shot an old lady standing outside her house, she posed no threat. the same cop who shot the kid shot and killed another person later on after his suspension from the force. again, more shots were fired than need to. i think our country's police forces need to be retrained. not all cops are bad but some are arrogant, pigheaded and trigger happy. in otherwords, it seems that Hollywood is training the cops of today. i swear, we see these incidents in action flicks very frequently. im just happy the victims didnt die. had they been, the officer(s) responsible should lose their jobs IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harryq Posted August 27, 2012 Share Posted August 27, 2012 Is that what the police did before opening fire into a crowd of people? what if the guy had a bomb? what if his gun wasn't just a pistol? were there people between the shooter and the police? Is it wrong to expect an ounce of bravery from our police; that instead of them risking innocent lives to save their own, they would instead try to talk down the man with the gun? you make it sound like they shot him from behind without saying anything while wearing riot gear and hiding behind a wall of civilians. I assume they said ~"freeze! it's the police!" or something, and he turned and pulled a gun on them. if they were cowards, they would have called in more police and stayed at their posts instead of tracking him down and confronting him, right? Also, I'm pretty sure there are no songs called "Fuck Tha Paramedics" because paramedics don't have a stop-and-frisk policy that they can use to hassle ordinary people. Paramedics also didn't chase down Ramarley Graham and murder him in his bathroom. I have also never heard a story of paramedics forcibly committing their own for trying to uncover corruption in the organization, like the NYPD did to Adrian Schoolcraft. When American citizens are protesting, is it paramedics that beat them, mace them, and trample on their rights? It wasn't paramedics that fired their gun into an occupied house in Detroit, killing seven-year-old Aiyana Jones, and it wasn't paramedics that murdered Andrew Lee Scott for opening his front door. "It wasn't Christians who bombed the U.S.S. Cole. It wasn't Christians who crashed a plane into the World Trade Center." you paint with broad strokes... There are good cops, bad cops, and everything in between. agreed. my point is that people act like they're all bad cops, bring up stories like "this one time, there was a cop who did something bad!", and jump to conclusions when something unfortunate happens. I assume you mean in their 15 years they've not shot at someone, cause u make it sound like they have never fired their guns before. i hope that isnt the case because if it is, bullshit. cops need to be trained how to use their guns effectively and properly. i cant imagine what its like being a cop in new york post 9/11 but if i were a cop, i wouldnt be so liberal with my ammunition. im not saying they shot the civilians on purpose, im just saying im sure colateral damage could have been prevented. I assumed it was pretty clear that I meant that they haven't fired their guns in the line of duty. presumably they've kept up their training... there is a city next to where i live. in the past 5 years, their police force has been under much scrutiny due to their use of their guns. one officer shot a kid who was holding a butter knife, he was shot in the back numerous times which wasnt necessary. a year or so later an officer shot an old lady standing outside her house, she posed no threat. the same cop who shot the kid shot and killed another person later on after his suspension from the force. again, more shots were fired than need to. my mistake, I forgot that the cops in the city next to yours are representative of all cops. and since that's the case, maybe these cops did shoot the civilians on purpose -- you know what that means, don't you? since they hit 10 people (9 civilians + the bad guy) and 10 of the 16 shots fired hit the bad guy, some of their shots must have injured multiple people! trick shot! just like in the movies! combos are worth double, right? wait a minute... I think I can read one of the cops' lips... okay, check this out. I'm gonna shoot the dude in the chest, right? see that bench? the bullet's gonna go through his body, hit that bench, ricochet off, and hit that guy over there in the ass. [shots fired] HA! nailed it! you owe me a beer! if only he wasn't white... damnit! they're all the same! not all cops are bad but some are arrogant, pigheaded and trigger happy. not all cops are good, but I'd like to think that most are honorable and have good intentions. even ones who incur some collateral damage when doing what they're trained to do, and that is to engage an active shooter. scottheisel 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hankmurphy Posted August 27, 2012 Share Posted August 27, 2012 you paint with broad strokes.... Citing specific examples of cops murdering innocent people and violating our rights is not "painting with broad strokes". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Posted August 27, 2012 Share Posted August 27, 2012 im not sure what anyone expects the cops to do in this situation. someone came to one of the busiest corners in the entire country, pulled a gun out and shot at someone. not saying they, the cops, did anything right, but fuck, what are they supposed to do? damned if they do, damned if they dont. if they dont shoot at him to stop him, and he goes on and he decides to go on and shoot at more innocent people, the cops are guilty of sitting on their hands. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ketchupnmustud Posted August 27, 2012 Share Posted August 27, 2012 I assumed it was pretty clear that I meant that they haven't fired their guns in the line of duty. presumably they've kept up their training... my mistake, I forgot that the cops in the city next to yours are representative of all cops. and since that's the case, maybe these cops did shoot the civilians on purpose -- you know what that means, don't you? since they hit 10 people (9 civilians + the bad guy) and 10 of the 16 shots fired hit the bad guy, some of their shots must have injured multiple people! trick shot! just like in the movies! combos are worth double, right? wait a minute... I think I can read one of the cops' lips... not all cops are good, but I'd like to think that most are honorable and have good intentions. even ones who incur some collateral damage when doing what they're trained to do, and that is to engage an active shooter. First off, no, to me it wasnt clear. sorry, i misunderstood. my bad. secondly, i never said that the cops in the town next to me represents all cops, and if that was your impression then im sorry you mistook what i was getting at. I simply was meaning, casualties happen regardless of training experience sometimes but 10 shots in one body? that seems excessive to me. was the guy not going down so they had to shoot him that many times? i believe most cops have honorable intentions, i dont hate cops. i appreciate their risking of their life to ensure the safety of the public. i just dont like reading about all who were injured, besides the man who was shot by the gunman, were injured by the police, because of the hate that follows. and actually, the worth of a combo shot depends on what multiplier you're at, which is determined by rank and medals.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcm1610 Posted August 27, 2012 Share Posted August 27, 2012 no, to me it wasnt clear. sorry i misunderstood. secondly, i never said that the cops in the town next to me represents all cops, and if that was your impression then im sorry you mistook what i was getting at. I simply was meaning, accidents happen regardless of training experience but 10 shots in one body? that seems excessive to me. was the guy not going down so they had to shoot him that many times? and actually, the worth of a combo shot depends on what multiplier you're at, which is determined by rank and medals.... How many officers were there? I legitimately don't know.Police (and military, etc) are trained that if they are going to shoot, they are shooting to kill. I don't know how uniform training is, but they're often trained to fire at least a 3-round burst if they are going to fire so that if the first shot misses, they have a second and third chance because as an officer, they are only firing when they absolutely need to (in theory). If they only fire once and miss, it could be catastrophic for someone else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fourfourtwo Posted August 27, 2012 Share Posted August 27, 2012 eastside of chicago Man, if you came to Chicago, you'd be shot cause you'd go into the westside thinking it was safe. Chicago south/west = bad bad bad. Chicago north/east = good good good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ketchupnmustud Posted August 27, 2012 Share Posted August 27, 2012 How many officers were there? I legitimately don't know. Police (and military, etc) are trained that if they are going to shoot, they are shooting to kill. I don't know how uniform training is, but they're often trained to fire at least a 3-round burst if they are going to fire so that if the first shot misses, they have a second and third chance because as an officer, they are only firing when they absolutely need to (in theory). If they only fire once and miss, it could be catastrophic for someone else. 2 officers, 1 shot 9 shots the other shot 7 shots. 16 shots total. 3 civilians were injure by direct gunshots while the other 6 were injured by fragments. i didnt know that they were trained that way, but it makes sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcm1610 Posted August 27, 2012 Share Posted August 27, 2012 Eh, 9 and 7 shots does seem a bit too high to my lack of training, but I dunno. It's not dramatically high, though. The three direct-shots that others took are unfortunate, but it's a busy area as far as I understand. The others are just flukes, because 10 or 16 bullets hit the target, correct? But yea, that training is why when there's a huge stand-off and all of a sudden the guy in all the policemen's crosshairs does something dramatic he gets lit up by 200 bullets - they're all going off their training that if they're firing, they're doing it 100% to ensure the target goes down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ketchupnmustud Posted August 28, 2012 Share Posted August 28, 2012 ya, 10 of the 16. not everything is perfect i guess. what a shitty situation. luckily no one else but the two were killed. at least that is a good thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Posted August 28, 2012 Share Posted August 28, 2012 Man, if you came to Chicago, you'd be shot cause you'd go into the westside thinking it was safe. Chicago south/west = bad bad bad. Chicago north/east = good good good. you're right, i messed that up, but my point is still valid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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