thebiglebowski Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 No you're missing the point. Whether or not she is a victim of rape we won't ever know for sure. But she sure as hell IS a victim of other things. Hate crimes, cyber bullying. A victim is a victim. Don't pick and choose what the definition is and lessen the fact that she very well could be getting hate for telling the truth. Rings of that old adage "It's only slander if it's not true." It either happened or it didn't, and what happened to her was either despicable on one end to maybe an understandable overreaction on the other. I'm sorry for what you've had to experience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sacredheart Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 Wait what? We shouldn't nitpick anyone's story ever? I think her being a fan of his even after she was raped by him is a pretty big red flag. What should we do? Ignore factual evidence? These are huge accusations. Her continuing to listen to Connor Oberst is not factual evidence that it didnt happen. anthemforadoomed 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
batman Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 Her continuing to listen to Connor Oberst is not factual evidence that it didnt happen. neither is it factual evidence her saying that it did happen... this: It either happened or it didn't, and what happened to her was either despicable on one end to maybe an understandable overreaction on the other. there are some terrible fucking people in this world. and some really crazy fucking people in this world. i wouldn't be surprised either way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whose_thare Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 No you're missing the point. Whether or not she is a victim of rape we won't ever know for sure. But she sure as hell IS a victim of other things. Hate crimes, cyber bullying. A victim is a victim. Don't pick and choose what the definition is and lessen the fact that she very well could be getting hate for telling the truth. I'm not missing any points. I simply disagree that we shouldn't be critical of her claims. Nevermind the fact of her story are easily disputable and seems like a crazed fan's fever dream. People aren't judging her for being a slut, or asking for it, or her character. They are because her story doesn't make sense, is hard to believe, and running away after making a tumblr about her rape. It sucks because you can never know the truth, but given the circumstances of this claim, I find it very suspect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
futures Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 I'm not missing any points. I simply disagree that we shouldn't be critical of her claims. Nevermind the fact of her story are easily disputable and seems like a crazed fan's fever dream. People aren't judging her for being a slut, or asking for it, or her character. They are because her story doesn't make sense, is hard to believe, and running away after making a tumblr about her rape. It sucks because you can never know the truth, but given the circumstances of this claim, I find it very suspect. Calling her a bitch and claiming she's an "alleged" victim when she has been sent death threats and has been cyber bullied isn't fair though. These types of situations are seen in a different light than other crimes. People automatically have a negative view on people if they are convicted of murder or drugs or robbery, etc. But when it comes to sexual assault there's always this ridiculous back and forth about how the victim must be lying. She could be, but it's also important to realize that an astounding amount of rape and sexual assault victims go back on their stories because they are threatened by the public. That's what I'm trying to say. Whether or not they are a victim of the assault or not, they still end up becoming victims of other hate crimes. If people of authority would take these types of claims seriously just like the report of any other crime, we absolutely would know the truth. The only reason why it never comes to that is because people don't understand that blaming the victim will never get us over that hump. I'm not arguing whether what she claims actually took place. I'm trying to explain that pointing fingers at her won't do any more than pointing fingers at Conor. Name calling and death threats is NOT how we should be handling sexual assault. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebiglebowski Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 Just to be clear -- so you are ok with Conor's actions and attempts to clear his name (innocent until proven guilty, right?), but you are not ok with the internet crowd getting involved and messing with this girl's life (not really any of their business -- let it get sorted out in court). I think that's a fair point of view (if that's what you are saying). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whose_thare Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 Calling her a bitch and claiming she's an "alleged" victim when she has been sent death threats and has been cyber bullied isn't fair though. These types of situations are seen in a different light than other crimes. People automatically have a negative view on people if they are convicted of murder or drugs or robbery, etc. But when it comes to sexual assault there's always this ridiculous back and forth about how the victim must be lying. She could be, but it's also important to realize that an astounding amount of rape and sexual assault victims go back on their stories because they are threatened by the public. That's what I'm trying to say. Whether or not they are a victim of the assault or not, they still end up becoming victims of other hate crimes. If people of authority would take these types of claims seriously just like the report of any other crime, we absolutely would know the truth. The only reason why it never comes to that is because people don't understand that blaming the victim will never get us over that hump. I'm not arguing whether what she claims actually took place. I'm trying to explain that pointing fingers at her won't do any more than pointing fingers at Conor. Name calling and death threats is NOT how we should be handling sexual assault. But you were actively equating bullying to just nitpicking her story, which was full of holes. No, nobody should just call her a bitch or send her death threats. That's moronic. But nobody is condoning that here (seriously I hope). That's all I'm questioning is her legitimacy in terms of how she said it went down. The very little details she gave were incredibly suspect to a musician who has had zero offenses in his life and is now forever associated with this wether or not he did anything wrong. She could of done this privately, but she didn't. She chose to come forward and only say this very publicly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
futures Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 Just to be clear -- so you are ok with Conor's actions and attempts to clear his name (innocent until proven guilty, right?), but you are not ok with the internet crowd getting involved and messing with this girl's life (not really any of their business -- let it get sorted out in court). I think that's a fair point of view (if that's what you are saying). I'm not okay with him suing for a million dollars. It's just him (or his people) showing their teeth. There's no way this girl has anywhere close to that amount of money. But you were actively equating bullying to just nitpicking her story, which was full of holes. No, nobody should just call her a bitch or send her death threats. That's moronic. But nobody is condoning that here (seriously I hope). That's all I'm questioning is her legitimacy in terms of how she said it went down. The very little details she gave were incredibly suspect to a musician who has had zero offenses in his life and is now forever associated with this wether or not he did anything wrong. She could of done this privately, but she didn't. She chose to come forward and only say this very publicly. I'm not talking about the legitimacy of her story. The only one talking about that is you. I'm talking about her being a victim, not just an alleged one. And it wasn't very publicly. You're telling me you and the thousands of other people who now know about this story knew about XOJane before this all happened? I saw the post with my own eyes before the public got to it. She in no way made it apparent that she was going out to get him for what he did to her. She was merely showing support for someone else who was violated by someone. It isn't her fault that a post on an anonymous support site for rape victims was brought to the attention of the AP.nets and POZs of the world. If victims can't talk about their experiences to try to help others in need, what can they do to help themselves and those around them in like situations? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
batman Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 the actual crime here isn't about cyber bullying or name calling (which are despicable in their own right and people say/do awful things under the guise of anonymity). it's about rape. in that case, she is an alleged victim. the same as conor oberst is an alleged rapist. nothing has been proven beyond reasonable doubt. there's really no room for subjectivity in that. I agree about the publicity. I don't think her intentions were to really come forward publicly, but the internet is a public forum, and things blow up very quickly, whether intended or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sacredheart Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 Over 85% of rape victims are "alleged rape victims" because less than 15% ever get proven in a court of law. Oddly enough though,rape has a lower false report% then arson, murder, and theft, yet no one is always jumping on the victim of those crimes calling them a liar and a bitch and they asked for it. This just in: person who went through traumatic experience may not recall every detail in the correct order due to the stress of the event. futures and anthemforadoomed 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebiglebowski Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 I don't think anyone has ever asked for a reasonable amount of money in a defamation lawsuit. I think that's just the way it goes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebiglebowski Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 So I guess that doesn't absolve him of being a dick for doing it, he's just the same level of dickhead that everyone else also is. batman 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
futures Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 the actual crime here isn't about cyber bullying or name calling (which are despicable in their own right and people say/do awful things under the guise of anonymity). it's about rape. in that case, she is an alleged victim. the same as conor oberst is an alleged rapist. nothing has been proven beyond reasonable doubt. there's really no room for subjectivity in that. I agree about the publicity. I don't think her intentions were to really come forward publicly, but the internet is a public forum, and things blow up very quickly, whether intended or not. In my initial post, I used the word victim specifically in her case. I was not talking strictly about the case at hand. It's a word I used broadly to cover all of the bases at this point in time, which yeah, does include the hate crimes. Lessening the severity of what she's been through whether you think she's lying or not isn't fair to her. Especially because of all the hate she's received in the past months. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
futures Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 Over 85% of rape victims are "alleged rape victims" because less than 15% ever get proven in a court of law. Oddly enough though,rape has a lower false report% then arson, murder, and theft, yet no one is always jumping on the victim of those crimes calling them a liar and a bitch and they asked for it. This just in: person who went through traumatic experience may not recall every detail in the correct order due to the stress of the event. This is an important post to take into consideration. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whose_thare Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 Didn't her tumblr read "fooled ya" when she got rid of it? Isn't that a red flag that it was all BS? Or was she hate crimes into writing that? I can fathom somebody who is still into CO music (she was still heavily into him) after he did that to her. These are just huge red flags for me. I just totally disagree, she made a public claim and couldn't back it up. She publicly came out with it, didn't have to name him, but chose to and is now facing the consequences of him now suing her. I don't feel sorry for her. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dkrtz Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 Man, I haven't read this thread, but..... I don't know how to preface this. Sexual abuse is the worst human act, besides or perhaps on par with murder and forced captivity. With that said, I have immense empathy nsympathy for peiple who have experienced such. Part of really views this as a likely occurrence. A Conor Oberst is my favorite musician. Whenever I say that its impossible for me to convey how his songwriting career has impacted my upbringing and interest in music. I consider him to be the most talented lyricist with a gift of touching on human sentimentality through music. However, being interested in his music for the past decade has made it impossible to deny that the musical merit of sentimentality does not match up with the personal life and actions of the man. We all know conor isn't known as a nice or "good" guy. Especially a decade ago in his early twenties. I really dont know if this happened. Its possible so I have difficulty defending him. But if it did happen, I will say I truly believe the man in his mid thirties now a decade later would not commit such an act. Maybe its wishful thinking but I really get the vibe he's focused on making this second marriage work. And his focus seems more on permanence rather than sex and youthful brief encounters. I could be wring though. If this is a false claim then I feel impossibly empathetic for condor's career. Re know nonesuch dropped him from the label. That means he reached a point to where his two labels and Merge must have not been able to keep up with the sales he predicted. Now its reported that the album is flopping and nonesuch doesn't want to house him anymore. I truly believe the album would have sold multiples more if this allegation never occurred. Self titled and outer south both did great and upside down mountain is of much higher quality imo than the latter. If conor did this he deserves to be held accountable. If this didn't happen then the woman has unrightfully stomped on the flames of career conor has been kindling since TPK in 2011. One of them needs to take accountability and try to gain redemption. I'm not sure who that is. (Edit: my phone screen is broken so I made a lotta typos that I cant go back and fix,y bad) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dkrtz Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 Didn't her tumblr read "fooled ya" when she got rid of it? Did this really happen? Is there proof? This would make the court case over before it began wouldn't it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
futures Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 Didn't her tumblr read "fooled ya" when she got rid of it? Isn't that a red flag that it was all BS? Or was she hate crimes into writing that? I can fathom somebody who is still into CO music (she was still heavily into him) after he did that to her. These are just huge red flags for me. I just totally disagree, she made a public claim and couldn't back it up. She publicly came out with it, didn't have to name him, but chose to and is now facing the consequences of him now suing her. I don't feel sorry for her. What you don't seem to understand is that there is such pressure from society on someone who has had this happen to them to come out and say they lied about it. Isn't that sick? Someone can say "I made it all up" and get LESS shit than if they are persistent in their story. That is the issue I have with all abuse allegations. Just read what waitinaroundtodie said. I've never heard of that "fooled ya" bit on her blog. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whose_thare Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 No i get that completely, but this case in particular is why I'm so very adamant that the details are hugely important. The tumblr I believe is gone, but I read it and was horrified. Then a few days later it just said "fooled ya" and I got even angrier. This is the last thing anybody needs. Also, to the gentlemen above us. This is Conor's second marriage? I've never heard that. Also, he didn't get dropped, but his album has been kind of a flop sadly. Also, the guy wrote Amy In the White Coat, I would think he would be the biggest asshole ever if he did sexually assault a fan. I've heard some iffy things about him (drinking mostly), but I've never heard he was a train wreck or anything that bad. He seems to fit the same stereotype of every Omaha dude in a band. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dkrtz Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 ^ I hadn't considered that. You're very insightful and very correct. Edit: this was intended towards the message two posts above explaining the reasons a victim may lie about an event not occurring Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whose_thare Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 Didn't avery similar thing happen to Issac Brock from Modest Mouse? But he was found innocent is all I can remember... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
futures Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 No i get that completely, but this case in particular is why I'm so very adamant that the details are hugely important. The tumblr I believe is gone, but I read it and was horrified. Then a few days later it just said "fooled ya" and I got even angrier. This is the last thing anybody needs. Also, to the gentlemen above us. This is Conor's second marriage. I've never heard that. Also, he didn't get dropped, but his album has been kind of a flop sadly. Also, the guy wrote Amy In the White Coat, I would think he would be the biggest asshole ever if he did sexually assault a fan. I've heard some iffy things about him (drinking mostly), but I've never heard he was a train wreck or anything that bad. He seems to fit the same stereotype of every Omaha dude in a band. You are so far on the the other side of the spectrum. You don't know anymore than the rest of us. & To say that you don't feel sorry for her just goes to show that you're siding with the accused. These situations need to be handled very differently than they are. You're joining in on the hate bandwagon because you don't think Conor "wasn't a train wreck or anything that bad." Conor probably can't even remember most of his 20's. He WAS a trainwreck. He was wasted on stage more often than he was sober for so much of his career. I'm really happy that he's seemed to have his life turned around now. I think it's great that he's still making music. But you can't completely excuse him from the idea that something may have occurred and that this girl could've retracted her story because of how society views the victims in these types of situations. For all we know Conor could honest to God think he never raped someone - but there are so many variables at play. From the obvious fact that he had a drinking problem and he might not have been coherent when the situation took place (if it did), all the way to the Conor seriously thinking what occurred is not considered rape. It's astounding how many rapists don't think or know that they are rapists because they don't consider forcing themselves on other people sexually is considered rape. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sacredheart Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 Perhaps Connors new album sold terrible because it sucks and not because of the claim? His work has been going down hill for years and now he is using this as a chance to make more money because he knows he can bully her in a court. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whose_thare Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 ^He's not keeping the money. So go derp somewhere else. You are so far on the the other side of the spectrum. You don't know anymore than the rest of us. & To say that you don't feel sorry for her just goes to show that you're siding with the accused. These situations need to be handled very differently than they are. You're joining in on the hate bandwagon because you don't think Conor "wasn't a train wreck or anything that bad." Conor probably can't even remember most of his 20's. He WAS a trainwreck. He was wasted on stage more often than he was sober for so much of his career. I'm really happy that he's seemed to have his life turned around now. I think it's great that he's still making music. But you can't completely excuse him from the idea that something may have occurred and that this girl could've retracted her story because of how society views the victims in these types of situations. For all we know Conor could honest to God think he never raped someone - but there are so many variables at play. From the obvious fact that he had a drinking problem and he might not have been coherent when the situation took place (if it did), all the way to the Conor seriously thinking what occurred is not considered rape. It's astounding how many rapists don't think or know that they are rapists because they don't consider forcing themselves on other people sexually is considered rape. I've only judged HER behavior. Not his. So take a breath and calm down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
futures Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 I've only judged HER behavior. Not his. So take a breath and calm down. That's what I said. Thanks for proving my point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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