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The crux of my issue is stats to me don't dictate value. So how do you judge value if its not by how well the team the player is on does? Just by his stats? Then why bother with the MVP voting, it should just be who has the best OBPS or minuscule ERA.

Because there's too many other factors in how well a team is doing. What if a player puts up huge numbers all year on a winning club and is poised to be named MVP. Last month of the season comes, the team's best starting pitcher gets injured and the team misses the playoffs. The player's production doesn't deviate at all in that last month of the season. All of a sudden he doesn't deserve the MVP since his team didn't make it?

That's kind of what happened to David Wright last year. He looked like the MVP all year, Phillies overtake the Mets and Rollins gets it. Wright should have been MVP.

It doesn't eliminate the need for voting. There's no rule that says each person has to value the same stats equally. Different people have different statistical philosophies, even among stat gurus I'm sure.

I think the vast majority of measuring value should be statistical. If there's a couple players who match up very closely in value, then you start looking at some intangibles.

Well then you and I are never going to agree. I don't think you're the most valuable player to anybody but your agent if you simply put up monster stats on a shit team. I don't trust those stats, period. Never will.

If you're in a class all by yourself but so much, for instance you're going to win the Triple Crown of pitching or hitting, then its obvious you're the MVP regardless.

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well how about other factors... like who's in front of, and in back of you in the lineup.

you can pitch around a single great hitter... but if you gotta face manny/ortiz, or a-rod/giambi, or any other power combo.. or in some cases trio... you gotta pitch to somebody.. and that player's stats are going to inflate because of the protection

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well how about other factors... like who's in front of, and in back of you in the lineup.

you can pitch around a single great hitter... but if you gotta face manny/ortiz, or a-rod/giambi, or any other power combo.. or in some cases trio... you gotta pitch to somebody.. and that player's stats are going to inflate because of the protection

I dont think anyone is pitching around Giambi anymore haha

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Wow. WTF was Detroit thinking -- Farnsworth?!?

At least get a prospect.

They were thinking, uh, we don't want him anymore?

Yeah... but a future HOF'er who is still productive for Farnsworth? It's not like Detroit is worrying about payroll or anything. Pudge still plays pretty good defense and is somewhat productive offensively, at least in terms of the majority of catchers.

Just an odd move, especially considering they're still very much in the AL Central race.

Edit: Just read that there may have been prospects involved too, which would bode much better for Detroit than just a middle reliever.

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Agreed, maybe they wanted to give Inge more time behind the plate?

Yeah, maybe. He's probably the more productive hitter at this stage of their careers.

I know he was bitching a lot at the beginning of the season about not wanting to catch -- I'm guessing he's come to accept it now as the only way to get consistent playing time?

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from mlbtraderumors.com

Manny Ramirez Rumors: Wednesday

By Tim Dierkes [July 30 at 5:57pm CST]

5:56pm: Baseball Prospectus' John Perrotto has multiple baseball sources saying the Red Sox are on the verge of sending Ramirez to Florida for three players, including outfielder Mike Stanton.

5:31pm: The latest: Buster Olney says the Sox are in "serious conversations" with the Marlins about Ramirez. The Red Sox would kick in money and want three players back, one of whom would probably be Willingham or Hermida. Progress on this is said to be "slow," per Ken Rosenthal's source.

3:24pm: Mike Berardino just can't see the Manny-Marlins thing happening at all. The Marlins remained mum on the topic when Berardino asked, but he cited many reasons why it didn't make sense. Also keep in mind that the Josh Willingham mention was speculation from Ken Rosenthal, not a rumor.

ESPN's Jayson Stark agrees with others saying Manny is staying put. He notes that the rumors could resume into August due to Ramirez's salary. Awesome!

11:22am: ESPN's Andrew Marchand says the deadline for a Manny trade might be 3pm CST today, as he has to sign paperwork 24 hours prior to a deal to waive his no-trade rights. However, it is possible that Ramirez already signed away his no-trade rights for some teams.

9:31am: Ken Rosenthal says Manny is a longshot to be traded. As it was all along. Sounds like the Red Sox will decline his '09 option.

8:24am: Late last night, Will Carroll of Baseball Prospectus had an interesting rumor:

One good source told me that he had heard that the Marlins were involved, willing to give up Jeremy Hermida and Boston-area product Jeff Allison, but I couldn't confirm this. I just don't see this deal getting done.

I imagine the Red Sox would be willing to eat all of Ramirez's salary to get a player like Hermida. As Carroll said, it seems unlikely.

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from mlbtraderumors.com

Manny Ramirez Rumors: Wednesday

By Tim Dierkes [July 30 at 5:57pm CST]

5:56pm: Baseball Prospectus' John Perrotto has multiple baseball sources saying the Red Sox are on the verge of sending Ramirez to Florida for three players, including outfielder Mike Stanton.

5:31pm: The latest: Buster Olney says the Sox are in "serious conversations" with the Marlins about Ramirez. The Red Sox would kick in money and want three players back, one of whom would probably be Willingham or Hermida. Progress on this is said to be "slow," per Ken Rosenthal's source.

3:24pm: Mike Berardino just can't see the Manny-Marlins thing happening at all. The Marlins remained mum on the topic when Berardino asked, but he cited many reasons why it didn't make sense. Also keep in mind that the Josh Willingham mention was speculation from Ken Rosenthal, not a rumor.

ESPN's Jayson Stark agrees with others saying Manny is staying put. He notes that the rumors could resume into August due to Ramirez's salary. Awesome!

11:22am: ESPN's Andrew Marchand says the deadline for a Manny trade might be 3pm CST today, as he has to sign paperwork 24 hours prior to a deal to waive his no-trade rights. However, it is possible that Ramirez already signed away his no-trade rights for some teams.

9:31am: Ken Rosenthal says Manny is a longshot to be traded. As it was all along. Sounds like the Red Sox will decline his '09 option.

8:24am: Late last night, Will Carroll of Baseball Prospectus had an interesting rumor:

One good source told me that he had heard that the Marlins were involved, willing to give up Jeremy Hermida and Boston-area product Jeff Allison, but I couldn't confirm this. I just don't see this deal getting done.

I imagine the Red Sox would be willing to eat all of Ramirez's salary to get a player like Hermida. As Carroll said, it seems unlikely.

My source (I sound like a douchey journalist now!) says that although Florida has been talking to Boston for about four days, a deal is unlikely to happen.

Doesn't mean it won't... but just highly unlikely.

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my source says manny will go to florida, but it will be a confusing 3 way trade including bay to boston

guess we will see

from mlbtraderumors.com

Manny Ramirez Rumors: Wednesday

By Tim Dierkes [July 30 at 5:57pm CST]

5:56pm: Baseball Prospectus' John Perrotto has multiple baseball sources saying the Red Sox are on the verge of sending Ramirez to Florida for three players, including outfielder Mike Stanton.

5:31pm: The latest: Buster Olney says the Sox are in "serious conversations" with the Marlins about Ramirez. The Red Sox would kick in money and want three players back, one of whom would probably be Willingham or Hermida. Progress on this is said to be "slow," per Ken Rosenthal's source.

3:24pm: Mike Berardino just can't see the Manny-Marlins thing happening at all. The Marlins remained mum on the topic when Berardino asked, but he cited many reasons why it didn't make sense. Also keep in mind that the Josh Willingham mention was speculation from Ken Rosenthal, not a rumor.

ESPN's Jayson Stark agrees with others saying Manny is staying put. He notes that the rumors could resume into August due to Ramirez's salary. Awesome!

11:22am: ESPN's Andrew Marchand says the deadline for a Manny trade might be 3pm CST today, as he has to sign paperwork 24 hours prior to a deal to waive his no-trade rights. However, it is possible that Ramirez already signed away his no-trade rights for some teams.

9:31am: Ken Rosenthal says Manny is a longshot to be traded. As it was all along. Sounds like the Red Sox will decline his '09 option.

8:24am: Late last night, Will Carroll of Baseball Prospectus had an interesting rumor:

One good source told me that he had heard that the Marlins were involved, willing to give up Jeremy Hermida and Boston-area product Jeff Allison, but I couldn't confirm this. I just don't see this deal getting done.

I imagine the Red Sox would be willing to eat all of Ramirez's salary to get a player like Hermida. As Carroll said, it seems unlikely.

My source (I sound like a douchey journalist now!) says that although Florida has been talking to Boston for about four days, a deal is unlikely to happen.

Doesn't mean it won't... but just highly unlikely.

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my source says manny will go to florida, but it will be a confusing 3 way trade including bay to boston

guess we will see

I read that on ESPN. Would be very interesting indeed.

My source knows the GM of the Marlins, but isn't being very forthcoming other than saying it probably won't happen.

thats quite a source so you win!!...my source is olney and gammons!!

i just totally see him moved...he was booed last night and i think they just want him gone

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I read that on ESPN. Would be very interesting indeed.

My source knows the GM of the Marlins, but isn't being very forthcoming other than saying it probably won't happen.

thats quite a source so you win!!...my source is olney and gammons!!

i just totally see him moved...he was booed last night and i think they just want him gone

Yeah, I can't imagine he's making anyone in Boston happy right now.

They'd better get someone good for him though... missing Manny would hurt that Boston lineup, methinks.

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thats quite a source so you win!!...my source is olney and gammons!!

i just totally see him moved...he was booed last night and i think they just want him gone

Yeah, I can't imagine he's making anyone in Boston happy right now.

They'd better get someone good for him though... missing Manny would hurt that Boston lineup, methinks.

totally agree....it looks like it would hermida, willingham, or bay to replace him....none of them are manny....but it looks like the bridge has been burned

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Yeah, I can't imagine he's making anyone in Boston happy right now.

They'd better get someone good for him though... missing Manny would hurt that Boston lineup, methinks.

totally agree....it looks like it would hermida, willingham, or bay to replace him....none of them are manny....but it looks like the bridge has been burned

Id rather have just about anyone else in that lineup besides Manny.

Also doesnt look like Teixeira has done anything in the game so far. Im still at work but trying to keep track of the game the best I can. Angels are up 3-0 tho. Would love to see them sweep the Sox in back to back series. Should be a good series starting tomorrow with NY and the Halos. Both teams are playing really well lately. The Angels own the Yanks but the Yankees are always capable of pulling out a win at any time.

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Details of possible Manny deal

Posted by Jayson Stark

Officials from teams around the sport are beginning to hear details about the structure of the Manny Ramirez deal. According to one of them, the three players the Red Sox are seeking from the Marlins for Ramirez are Jeremy Hermida, pitcher Ryan Tucker and big-time outfield prospect Mike Stanton. However, the two sides also have discussed substituting Josh Willingham for Hermida.

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