Hitler/Beatles Weirdness

[Guest staropramen]

Also, didn't the all the accused in the Nuremberg Trials admit that there was a systematic, state run extermination program? And that their mission was to eliminate the Jews? How do you explain that? They were somehow coerced into saying that?

You're off your rocker.

No, all the accused did not do that. All the confessions obtained that are of the nature you refer were obtained by torture. Rudolf Hoess, the Commadant of Auschwitz admitted this and this is also confirmed in the documents published in 1983 by Rupert Butler of the testimony of Bernard Clarke, the Jewish British Military officer who did the torturing and openly bragged about it. The statements by people being tortured and having their wife and children threatened are of no value whatsoever. All the real documentation shows that the Nazis had a plan of expulsion of Jews, not extermination. In fact one document exists that quotes Hitler as saying he wants the solution to the Jewish problem [expulsion] posponed until after the war.

No, I'm not off my rocker, I just make an effort to learn and study the facts. Here's an interesting experiment. Ask people who are quick to use the label "holocaust denier" what their ethnic background is. When they say "Swedish" ask them how many Swedes died in WW2 and watch the blank stare. Repeat this when the say Italian, Polish, French, etc. THEN ask them how many Jews died in WW2? Everyone knows that magic 6 million number! Then ask them, "you mean to tell me that you don't know how many of your own people died but you have studied the death toll of Jews?" What this demonstrates is that obviously someone has made sure that the Jewish figures have been hammered into everyones psyche. Most people that go around defending this holocaust nonsense are doing so from a brainwashed position, not an educated, learned one. I mean for goodness sakes, the Auschwitz museum THEMSELVES reduced the number of camp deaths from 4,000,000 to 1.4 million in the late 1980's. Plaques that stated the first figure, that were blessed by the Pope I might add, were all taken down in the late 80's and replaced with ones that cite the revised figures. So the easiest way to spot an ignoramous who has done no studying whatsoever is when someone uses that 6,000,000 number. How can that number still stand when a reduction of 2.6 million has been accepted by the prophets of holocaustianity themselves? I'm sure if you dig deep in the Talmud you'll find some mystical mathematical equation for it but in the real world we should know better than that.

[Guest staropramen]

I never get into the VC drama threads, but having a Nazi on the board is ridiculous and someone needs to ban this guy.

Tell me, if I was advocating degenerate anti-white rap noise, or I was posting records of racists like Gil Scott Heron or The Last Poets would you call for my banning? I doubt it.

[basketcasey]

I never get into the VC drama threads, but having a Nazi on the board is ridiculous and someone needs to ban this guy.

Tell me, if I was advocating degenerate anti-white rap noise, or I was posting records of racists like Gil Scott Heron or The Last Poets would you call for my banning? I doubt it.

Judging from the racist relatives thread, I think you'd have no problem convincing most of the idiots here that the Last Poets are "racist."

[Guest staropramen]

Hitler, not the biggest dick ever, but fucking up there.

Stalin and Mao both killed more people.

but again its hard to quantify a genocidal maniac.

And yet in most standard encylopedias where one would hope to find some objectivety Stalin and Mao are regularly referred to as "communist revolutionaries" or "statesmen" and not as genocidal dictators.

[opioqueers]

Tell me, if I was advocating degenerate anti-white rap noise, or I was posting records of racists like Gil Scott Heron or The Last Poets would you call for my banning? I doubt it.

Judging from the racist relatives thread, I think you'd have no problem convincing most of the idiots here that the Last Poets are "racist."

Hahaha, seriously. Denying the Holocaust = "BAN HIM!" Denying white privilege = "Exalt!" At least this person's falsely denying something that happened in the past.

[Guest afsdan]

the genocide of six million people

twelve million.

six million were jews

our holocaust denier here is bringing the laughs!

[xxmartinxx]

There is no debate to be had. It is fact. The Holocaust happened.

If you don't want to believe that the genocide of six million people was a negative thing, then I think I can safely speak for the whole board and say you are not welcome here.

Clever twisting of words. The fact is that there was no systematic, state run extermination program. There was a war started by Jews and in war terrible things happen. The execution by machine guns of innocent Jews on the eastern front was terrible as was the burning alive of 100,000 plus innocent Germans in Dresden and the deliberate murder of innocent Germans after the war in Eisenhower's camps and in places like Czechoslovakia. Only vile liars imprison people for expressing views about history. As someone of part German descent I will not stand by and allow these lies to villify my people any longer. It's high time people realise that holocaust propaganda only serves to direct attention away from what Israel is doing to the Palestinians which is of course exactly what they claim was done to them. So fuck off.

Wow... I've never encountered a real holocaust denier.

Whether it's 6 million or 1.5 million, that's a lot of dead people. That doesn't even take into account the millions of people of non-Jewish heritage he exterminated.

"Your people"? How many people are running around blaming every German for the Holocaust? I'm part German as well, but I've never felt slighted by or upset for it's historical bad rap. Perhaps it's because my direct German relatives had been here for about a century before WWII, or maybe because my grandfather and uncle fought in WWII killing Nazis. Or perhaps because I don't see myself as a German, I see myself as an American.

Regardless, assholes like you make it difficult to have a real conversation about what has gone in in Israel over the past 50 years. Get off my elevator.

[llamason56]

can we get a lock on this thread? i think its gone on past the discussion of what the OP was for.

[silentgods]

And the Germans killed the Jews

And the Jews killed the Arabs

And the Arabs killed the hostages

And that is the news

And is it any wonder

That the monkey's confused

---

Monkey killing monkey killing monkey over pieces of the ground.

Silly monkeys.

Give them thumbs, they make a club to beat their brother down.

How they've survived so misguided is a mystery.

Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability

To lift an eye to heaven, conscious of his fleeting time here

[Guest staropramen]

Clever twisting of words. The fact is that there was no systematic, state run extermination program. There was a war started by Jews and in war terrible things happen. The execution by machine guns of innocent Jews on the eastern front was terrible as was the burning alive of 100,000 plus innocent Germans in Dresden and the deliberate murder of innocent Germans after the war in Eisenhower's camps and in places like Czechoslovakia. Only vile liars imprison people for expressing views about history. As someone of part German descent I will not stand by and allow these lies to villify my people any longer. It's high time people realise that holocaust propaganda only serves to direct attention away from what Israel is doing to the Palestinians which is of course exactly what they claim was done to them. So fuck off.

Wow... I've never encountered a real holocaust denier.

Whether it's 6 million or 1.5 million, that's a lot of dead people. That doesn't even take into account the millions of people of non-Jewish heritage he exterminated.

"Your people"? How many people are running around blaming every German for the Holocaust? I'm part German as well, but I've never felt slighted by or upset for it's historical bad rap. Perhaps it's because my direct German relatives had been here for about a century before WWII, or maybe because my grandfather and uncle fought in WWII killing Nazis. Or perhaps because I don't see myself as a German, I see myself as an American.

Regardless, assholes like you make it difficult to have a real conversation about what has gone in in Israel over the past 50 years. Get off my elevator.

Go fuck yourself you piece of shit.

[counterfiction]

Wow... I've never encountered a real holocaust denier.

Whether it's 6 million or 1.5 million, that's a lot of dead people. That doesn't even take into account the millions of people of non-Jewish heritage he exterminated.

"Your people"? How many people are running around blaming every German for the Holocaust? I'm part German as well, but I've never felt slighted by or upset for it's historical bad rap. Perhaps it's because my direct German relatives had been here for about a century before WWII, or maybe because my grandfather and uncle fought in WWII killing Nazis. Or perhaps because I don't see myself as a German, I see myself as an American.

Regardless, assholes like you make it difficult to have a real conversation about what has gone in in Israel over the past 50 years. Get off my elevator.

Go fuck yourself you piece of shit.

And there's the winner!

Nothing like personal insults to bring down the level of discourse.

[Guest staropramen]

Go fuck yourself you piece of shit.

And there's the winner!

Nothing like personal insults to bring down the level of discourse.

What level of discourse? I've been the only one making logical arguments. Shit deserves to be labeled as such.

[silentgods]

from

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_denial

The key claims of Holocaust deniers are:

- The Nazis had no official policy or intention of exterminating Jews.

- Nazis did not use gas chambers to mass murder Jews.

- The figure of 5 to 6 million Jewish deaths is a gross exaggeration, and the actual number is an order of magnitude lower.

Other claims include the following:

- Stories of the Holocaust were a myth initially created by the Allies of World War II to demonize Germans.

- Jews spread this myth as part of a grander plot intended to enable the creation of a Jewish homeland in Palestine, and now to garner continuing support for the state of Israel.

- Documentary evidence of the Holocaust, from photographs to the Diary of Anne Frank, is fabricated.

- Survivor testimonies are filled with errors and inconsistencies, and are thus unreliable.[3]

- Interrogators obtained Nazi prisoners' confessions of war crimes through the use of torture.

-The Nazi treatment of Jews was no different from what the Allies did to their enemies in World War II.

-Holocaust denial is widely viewed as failing to adhere to rules for the treatment of evidence, principles that mainstream historians (as well as scholars in other fields) regard as basic to rational inquiry.

-The Holocaust was well-documented by the extremely bureaucratic German Nazi government itself. It was further witnessed by the Allied forces who entered Germany and its associated Axis states towards the end of World War II.

According to researchers Michael Shermer and Alex Grobman, there is a "convergence of evidence" that proves that the Holocaust happened. This evidence includes:

Written documents—hundreds of thousands of letters, memos, blueprints, orders, bills, speeches, articles, memoirs, and confessions.

Eyewitness testimony—accounts from survivors, Jewish Sonderkommandos (who were forced to help load bodies from the gas chambers into the crematoria in exchange for the promise of survival), SS guards, commandants, local townspeople, and even high-ranking Nazis who spoke openly about the mass murder of the Jews.

Photographs—including official military and press photographs, civilian photographs, secret photographs taken by survivors, aerial photographs, German and Allied film footage, unofficial photographs taken by the German military.

The camps themselves—concentration camps, work camps, and extermination camps that still exist in varying degrees of originality and reconstruction.

Inferential evidence—population demographics, reconstructed from the pre-World War II era; if six million Jews were not killed, what happened to them all?

”

Much of the controversy surrounding the claims of Holocaust deniers centers on the methods used to present arguments that the Holocaust allegedly never happened as commonly accepted. Numerous accounts have been given by Holocaust deniers (including evidence presented in court cases) of claimed "facts" and "evidence"; however, independent research has shown these claims to be based upon flawed research, biased statements, or even deliberately falsified evidence. Opponents of Holocaust denial have compiled detailed accounts of numerous instances where this evidence has been altered or manufactured (see Nizkor Project and David Irving). According to Pierre Vidal-Naquet, in our society of image and spectacle, extermination on paper leads to extermination in reality

[counterfiction]

OK, so this has been re-opened but I get the feeling it will die soon.

The level of discourse you seem to be describing is full off conspiracy theories that make schizophrenics in tin-foil hats look normal. The facts and statistics on holocaust deaths, government ordered executions, and genocide are completely against you.

I know that wikipedia is not always the most sound source of information but check the page about the holocaust and flip through the numbers. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust

The sources of the information listed is at the bottom of the page. When you can provide me with links to back up your claims then I may lend some creedence to it.

Until then you will be called "Crazy White Power Guy" and nothing else. I will not allow you to spew your particular brand of bullshit which is only hate and prejudice under the thin disguise of white-power conspiracy theories.

[xxmartinxx]

And there's the winner!

Nothing like personal insults to bring down the level of discourse.

What level of discourse? I've been the only one making logical arguments. Shit deserves to be labeled as such.

I'm the piece of shit? You're the one all butt-hurt about your grandpappy being in the SS or something and now you want to make excuses for him. Wah. Fuck you.

[silentgods]

In 1945, General Dwight D. Eisenhower, Supreme Allied Commander, anticipated that someday an attempt would be made to recharacterize the Nazi crimes as propaganda and took steps against it:

“ The same day I saw my first horror camp. It was near the town of Gotha. I have never been able to describe my emotional reactions when I first came face to face with indisputable evidence of Nazi brutality and ruthless disregard of every shred of decency. Up to that time I had known about it only generally or through secondary sources. I am certain however, that I have never at any time experienced an equal sense of shock.

I visited every nook and cranny of the camp because I felt it my duty to be in a position from then on to testify at first hand about these things in case there ever grew up at home the belief or assumption that "the stories of Nazi brutality were just propaganda". Some members of the visiting party were unable to go through with the ordeal. I not only did so but as soon as I returned to Patton's headquarters that evening I sent communications to both Washington and London, urging the two governments to send instantly to Germany a random group of newspaper editors and representative groups from the national legislatures. I felt that the evidence should be immediately placed before the American and the British publics in a fashion that would leave no room for cynical doubt.”

Eisenhower, upon finding the victims of the death camps, ordered all possible photographs to be taken, and for the German people from surrounding villages to be ushered through the camps and even made to bury the dead. He wrote the following to General Marshall after visiting a German internment camp near Gotha, Germany:

“ The visual evidence and the verbal testimony of starvation, cruelty and bestiality were so overpowering as to leave me a bit sick. In one room, where they [there] were piled up twenty or thirty naked men, killed by starvation, George Patton would not even enter. He said that he would get sick if he did so. I made the visit deliberately, in order to be in a position to give first-hand evidence of these things if ever, in the future, there develops a tendency to charge these allegations merely to "propaganda."

[silentgods]

other side

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allied_war_crimes_during_World_War_II

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_war_crimes

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dachau_massacre

[travis]

Wow just read this whole thread after seeing the thread that Dan made.

The funniest part is that he thinks the "facts and science" are on his side.

Ive actually been to Dachau and went thru the building there where they systematically killed people. Its one long building separated into about 4 rooms side by side. The first is a holding room, the next one is the "showers" (there are holes in the ceiling where they would drop the gas in), the next room is a place to pile up the bodies before throwing them in the ovens and after that is a room of ovens where they cremated the bodies.

Here are some pictures:

A sign on the wall in the 1st room, the waiting room. It was just a big empty room.

This is the "shower" where they would gas the people, the holes in the ceiling are still there

The next room was just another big empty room and this was the sign on the wall

This is a sign on the wall in the crematorium where they burned the bodies and hung people

And a couple pictures of the ovens and they would hang people from hooks on those wooden beams

[danthemjfan23]

i've been there, too, travis. it's a pretty fucked up experience. it was emotional for everybody, but i actually went with a couple german family friends of ours, and they cried the whole time walking through because they were so embarassed/ashamed/felt so guilty about what their ancestors had done. that's a day i will never forget.

[xxmartinxx]

LIES! These are for baking bread! Really... big... human-sized... bread.

[travis]

Yea its hands down the most strange place Ive ever visited in my life. Its so creepy and incredibly sad being in there knowing what went down right where you're standing.

That picture of the "showers" is actually me and my dad and our blurred out German Tour Guide. He told us some interesting stuff about the place we wouldnt have known just by walking thru there but it was kind of a waste of money hiring the guy cause pretty much everything you see at that place is labeled.

[danthemjfan23]

when did you go there, travis? what made you decide to visit it? was it different from what you expected it to be?

[travis]

when did you go there, travis? what made you decide to visit it? was it different from what you expected it to be?

I was there in October 08. My parents wanted to go to Europe for vacation and asked if I wanted to go so of course I said yes. Then the 3 of us each picked a country that we wanted to visit. Started in Ireland, then went to Germany and then to Italy. My mom actually chose Germany cause she was really interested in the holocaust and I guess had always wanted to visit one of the camps. So thats how we ended up going to Dachau.

I really didnt have any idea of what to expect but it was quite an experience and Im glad I was lucky enough to get to see something like that in person. I dont think what I was seeing there actually really soaked in until after we left and were driving back to our hotel. Then it hit me and I started to realize what I actually just saw.

How about you?

[danthemjfan23]

i'll try to keep this from turning into a novel, but you know how i normally post...

my sister (who's 3 years older than me) went to germany as a foreign exchange student for 3 weeks in high school. she loved it and when she got back, she immediately started saving up to go back again. my parents surprised her and said that we would all go as a family one summer. then, when i was old enough to be able to go on the same foreign exchange trip, i also did that. so i've actually been there twice.

my mom is catholic, but my dad is jewish and both of his parents are actually holocaust survivors. like, legit "we lived in the woods for months" survivors. if you've ever seen the movie "Defiance" that gives a pretty realistic representation (based on what they've told me) of how they lived for a while. when my grandpa was 6 years old, he watched his father get shot in the back and die while trying to run away from some nazis. by the time he was 8, he knew how to take apart and reassemble a gun in the dark. it's a life i've luckily never known, but something i've always been interested in learning about.

as a kid, though, the holocaust wasn't really a topic of discussion at my grandparents' house because they just didn't want to ever talk about it. and rightfully so. that would be akin to asking a rape victim to talk about their experience over and over and over. my grandpa still has dreams that he's being chased in the woods and has to fight for his life. but when my sister and i started getting to the age where we would talk about it in school, of course our curiosity over-rode our manners and we would ask him to talk about it a little. i'm sure he's only told us a tiny fraction of the things he knows and saw and experienced, but even so, something is better than nothing.

it was surreal to visit a concentration camp. knowing how many people walked through those doors and never walked out is nuts. or, if you've ever been to the Holocaust Museum in washington, d.c. and seen all the stuff there... it's just something you can't even wrap your head around. seeing pictures of dead bodies piled up by the thousands, waiting to be burned. seeing piles of gold teeth that they took, or jewelry, or shoes, or anything. it's just not fathomable. it's a shame that not everybody will get the chance to be able to walk through that museum or to be able to take a tour of dachau or auschwitz or one of the others. it's something that everybody should be aware of.

[hankmurphy]

I'm Polish and I know that Hitler and Stalin killed ~6,000,000 Poles (3,000,000 of which were Jewish). The only real issue I have with Holocaust discussion is that most people disregard the non-Jews who were murdered. That's 6,000,00 Poles killed, not through warfare, but through systematic extermination. Also I think Stalin should feature more prominently in Holocaust discussion, because he enabled Hitler to occupy Poland and sent ~2,000,000 Poles to death/labor camps. As a Polish-American I wish more people were aware of what happened there leading up to America's involvement in WWII.

edit: Thousands of Germans living in Poland were subsequently murdered/deported in subhuman conditions following Germany's defeat.