Walmart Black Friday ---- Strike!

[thebiglebowski]

I disagree. Not going to get into a big debate on labor relations or anything. I'm not anti-labor at all. My dad is a teamster. I just believe that our society is better when "skilled" (quotes because I know that is subjective) is union and "unskilled" isn't. Skilled would include carpenters, electricians, mechanics, factory workers, etc by my definition (my dad is a truck driver for Coca-Cola and I would consider this kinda close to the line of deliniation).

We also gotta have some jobs where the teens go to earn pizza money, where the people who don't have the intelligence or work ethic to get better work land, and where people who do have the intelligence and work ethic land temporarily in hard times. I know that is painting a population with a single brush stroke and there are exceptions but I think it's mostly right. And I just don't feel unionization fits in with this type of "lower" work. It's trying to lift it up rather than calling it what it is.

[¯\_(ツ)_/¯]

I disagree. Not going to get into a big debate on labor relations or anything. I'm not anti-labor at all. My dad is a teamster. I just believe that our society is better when "skilled" (quotes because I know that is subjective) is union and "unskilled" isn't. Skilled would include carpenters, electricians, mechanics, factory workers, etc by my definition (my dad is a truck driver for Coca-Cola and I would consider this kinda close to the line of deliniation).

We also gotta have some jobs where the teens go to earn pizza money, where the people who don't have the intelligence or work ethic to get better work land, and where people who do have the intelligence and work ethic land temporarily in hard times. I know that is painting a population with a single brush stroke and there are exceptions but I think it's mostly right. And I just don't feel unionization fits in with this type of "lower" work. It's trying to lift it up rather than calling it what it is.

well we disagree on this. Unionization should be an opportunity for all types of work, not just for "skilled" labor work. kitchen workers, janitorial staff, hotel employees, all unskilled workers, all benefit greatly from unionization. I worked in a unionized grocery store for years while in college, its not like unionization drove up prices, it just defined job duties and tasks, defined work day and shifts, when breaks are taken, simple day-to-day things that get abused by companies who dont have that structure already in place.

edit:

and "skilled:" is so unbelievably subjective... as you noted.

[thebiglebowski]

I did a year as a plant supervisor in a GM engine plant. I saw first-hand the negatives of unionization too. People would just not show up when it snowed because they could do it X number of times before they got into any trouble. "Defined job duties" leads to people saying "that's not my job" when you asked them to pick parts off the floor while the line was broken down. And this is from people paid north of $60k per year with nothing above a high school diploma. They were quick at their jobs, but their jobs could still be described as bolting parts onto an engine block in the crudest sense. I could write about it for an hour...

So if department store employees can have a union without getting greedy (I think what I wrote above is examples of being greedy), then I would say good for them and support it. I think it is a very slippery slope and the negatives are going to come along with the positives.

[hipsterasfolk]

My family drags me out with them, I'm hungover, I slept maybe an hour, and have no holiday spirit at the time. People don't express any sort of mannerisms towards others (i.e. holding the door or when I use my height to grab something off a top shelf.) This usuals results in me saying "thank you" with my shit eating grin and someone taking offense to it, sometime it escalates and gets me stoked for the holidays lol

[ronniegwilliams]

I've worked retail since I was 16, so there have only been a couple of Black Fridays that I've missed out working on over the last decade or so. Unfortunately I will be working Black Friday this year (more than likely), but I work commission so it should be pretty okay. I'm always amazed by how excited people get by off brand electronics selling for the same tag price it will be merely weeks later.

[hipsterasfolk]

I've worked retail since I was 16, so there have only been a couple of Black Fridays that I've missed out working on over the last decade or so. Unfortunately I will be working Black Friday this year (more than likely), but I work commission so it should be pretty okay. I'm always amazed by how excited people get by off brand electronics selling for the same tag price it will be merely weeks later.

Same I use to be a Mac rep for a computer store for about 4+ Black Fridays. It was great when I was on a commission basis and people bought warranties out the wazoo from me.

Computer + Warranty = $50+ x 12 hrs = bank. The downside is people who try to haggle with prices, I shrug it off and tell them I bought my 17" MBP in cash and I didn't get a discount from the store (which was true)

Also won tons of free shit from Xbox, iPod Touch 64gbs, and countless games. But thankfully I will return to my bank for Winter break and enjoying my sweet life of talking to retired men about fine scotch

[rudeboydh]

Yeah, working commission on Black Friday is the only way I'd volunteer to do it (Sears being my second job and Friday not on regular availability). I work in appliances, which is usually busy until all the doorbusters are gone, and not so much after that. People go batshit crazy for the tools and electronics though...

[sliplikespace]

Good luck to all of them. I just started working at Old Navy and learned that I will be working Black Friday. I'm hoping that it won't be as crazy as stores like Wal-Mart or Target but I'm still prepared.

[littlebistro]

Good luck to all of them. I just started working at Old Navy and learned that I will be working Black Friday. I'm hoping that it won't be as crazy as stores like Wal-Mart or Target but I'm still prepared.

Worked there for 5 years.. There's a lot of people working and it goes by quickly. Hope you don't have to work thanksgiving day.

[thebiglebowski]

I've worked retail since I was 16, so there have only been a couple of Black Fridays that I've missed out working on over the last decade or so. Unfortunately I will be working Black Friday this year (more than likely), but I work commission so it should be pretty okay. I'm always amazed by how excited people get by off brand electronics selling for the same tag price it will be merely weeks later.

Part of what goes through a shopper's mind is that they are unsure if they are making the correct purchase (price, quality, etc...). The convienent thing about Black Friday is that you KNOW you are getting a good deal on just about everything you buy. So it takes the thinking out of it and people value that.

[thebiglebowski]

So was anyone considering shopping at Wal-Mart and bailing because of the strike? I really don't plan on going near that place anytime soon. It's a little bit about supporting the workers (even though I argued against a union above, I still respect their complaints. The union is an avenue, not fundamental to the problem).

But mostly, it's about thinking that place is going to be an absolute clusterfuck and not wanting to deal with it.

[¯\_(ツ)_/¯]

So was anyone considering shopping at Wal-Mart and bailing because of the strike? I really don't plan on going near that place anytime soon. It's a little bit about supporting the workers (even though I argued against a union above, I still respect their complaints. The union is an avenue, not fundamental to the problem).

But mostly, it's about thinking that place is going to be an absolute clusterfuck and not wanting to deal with it.

also, the ability to strike over the right to unionize, even if unionization doesnt happen, could still put pressure on walmart to improve working conditions without having to deal with a union.

[steventangent]

The idea that people who work in retail shouldn't be allowed to unionize is absurd to me. These are some of the easiest workers to exploit, and they absolutely should have someone that looks out for their interests. Keeping any type of retail place running successfully requires people with talent and dedication to their jobs, even if the average shopper doesn't see it all the time.

When you consider that those jobs are often low paying with few benefits, and that many times, they employ people who have few (if any) other means for support, it makes total sense that they would need a union to stand up for them.

At any rate, all Wal Mart workers are at-will employees. I'll be surprised if this gains much traction, as the people who will have the biggest effect will be senior employees with the most to lose, and newer people won't care as much. Nobody is going to risk losing their jobs before the holidays. Truthfully, I wasn't planning on doing any Black Friday shopping anyway, but I would not ever in good conscience cross another man or woman's picket line, even if its a bunch of wildcatting Wal Mart wage slaves.

[steventangent]

There are some ways that there are adequate protections under the law, provided people are aware of them and not too afraid or desperate to keep their jobs to use them. Most retail employees are there out of necessity. They are people trying to pay for college, people raising kids, people in marginalized living conditions, people trying to get their life in order, people with cognitive or physical impairments. None of them are people I would call greedy on the whole, but they are definitely people entitled to health insurance, vacation and sick days, fair scheduling, sustainable wages and fringe benefits. I am damn proud of the people I represent in my local and I have seen with my own eyes the ways people will attempt to exploit them, skirt the law, or otherwise treat them poorly because they know they are dealing with people who can't afford to say "no, i won't stand for this" on their own. I catch a lot of shit for some of the things I've had to do, but then I remind myself that I have people who have health insurance for their kids, paid sick time, and job security, all of which they absolutely deserve, even if they do have monkey jobs.

People wont inderstand until they see the ugly side of this kind of shit. I've seen blatantly illegal shit that they do with impunity because nobody that's working a low wage job wants to get fired and have nothing. I've seen retailers making people work 62 hour weeks on holiday weeks, then not paying overtime and just putting the extra hours on the next check because they cut their schedule way back. Sometimes workers don't even realize they're getting screwed - lack of education, inexperience, mental handicaps.

I feel like people should know this kind of stuff before they say, "you're just a Meijer cashier, why the hell do YOU need a union?"

And yeah, I didn't make it clear, but I am a rep for these very same people. I wouldn't call them greedy, and most of them shouldn't be called lazy. They're people who do shitty jobs with talent and humility and skill and deal with some pretty terrible indignities sometimes.

[circuit bored records]

ITT: tl;dr

[thebiglebowski]

Pretty sure I don't want to get into a labor debate with a union rep. It would be like arguing vegetarianism with a Tiger. Agree to disagree.

[steventangent]

If its because you think those people should be paid minimum wage and exploited because they can't afford to risk losing their jobs by saying "no," then yeah, don't bother.

[steventangent]

I see what you're getting at, but you should know that I'm not a lifer or a career union rep. I became a volunteer steward because I saw a need for workers to have representation.

[thebiglebowski]

Awww man I'll bite.

Unions did not give 2 shits about retail workers until the manufacturing moved overseas. They lost their base, and they are trying to survive by going after new ones. So it is hard for me to really buy into that "every working man/woman" stuff. It hasn't been practiced uniformly.

I don't think working in a retail is a "career". It's a job. Unions (to me) are for careers. If you want to take a job that requires no education, basically no training, and little responsibility, then yeah, you take the shit that comes with it. Where do you draw the line? A union for the guys selling peanuts outside the ballpark? A union for punk bands to prevent new ones from stealing their fans? Just because you make your living a certain way does not automatically mean that you have a right to the work and to keep others from competing for it.

But regardless of what we write here, the real world will determine the outcome of a strike. If the workers are easily replaceable and the general population is insensitive to their plight (which is the broadest generalization I've made, but what I am getting at is that your average Wal-Mart shopper is more concerned with saving a dollar on their underwear that was made in Bangladesh than fighting against the corporations and 1%), then I think the corporation will win. If they want to try, go for it. Show that Wal-Mart can't clean house and be back at 100% real soon (unlike if say, Ford were to replace their workers. Much bigger learning curve on the job). I think they can.

[steventangent]

I don't think any worker deserves to be exploited, period. My own local has represented retail workers since the end of WWII. We're not going to see eye to eye on this, but I definitely believe workers should be treated with dignity by their employers and not expected to deal with "the shit that comes with their job" when it comes to some of these cases.

I believe even bagboys with Down syndrome should be able to have a union that looks out for them. I believe sometimes people who have few marketable skills or have fallen on hard times sometimes need the most help. I believe that sometimes the law provides inadequate protection and that some people may not understand they have rights when it comes to their bosses or know how to exercise them.

I believe all of this because of my knowledge and firsthand experiences. I was once so anti-union that I looked into legal ways I could quit paying dues without losing my job, and what we'd have to do to decertify our shop. I believed the unions were the ones exploiting workers. I've since had a change of heart.

[cymbalism15]

I don't blame them, Black Friday is worse at Walmart than most places because not only is it crazy but the people are scary even when it's not BF...

[thebiglebowski]

The people with mental disabilities would need a union the least. The already have guardians looking out for their personal best interests and special, stricter laws that protect them from being taken advantage of. If you have seen instances where a retarded person was abused and the system of law / guardians was insufficient to protect them, I would be interested to hear it.

[harryq]

how are seasonal employees treated with respect to a union? are they part of the union? are they able to be let go after the holiday season, no questions asked?

for the most part, I'm with lebowski on this, especially the "Unions are for careers" comment. I unloaded trucks at walmart during the summer between undergrad and grad school, and it totally sucked ass (especially for a wuss like me). if you work that job for ~$10/hr and aren't motivated to get a better job... eek!

and for the record, I'm generally anti-union, if only because my sister's boyfriend works for the postal service and he's always talking about how their union makes it nearly impossible to fire all of the slackers he works with, and because of that, he has to work super duper hard to move up the ladder to avoid being laid off simply because they've been around longer than he has.

[konk]

Yeah the turnover rate is really high for truck unloaders at Target. If they do well, they get promoted. If they don't, they either quit or get fired. So that team always sucks.

[thebiglebowski]

Harry, I believe unions negotiate their own rules but in general, it is something like a worker can work 60-90 days, then either has to be let go or join the union. It's just enough in most places for college students to come in as summer help (nice jobs by the way, my sister was making close to $20 / hour working for Better Maid potato chips), but then they get cut loose.

So if a person is really only going to be working a month between Thanksgiving and Christmas, they would not need to be union. If they stayed on longer (management could decide to keep them around), they would be forced to join.