thebiglebowski Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 I know the sabermetricians love him because of his defense but he's a .270 hitter who has never had 100 runs, 10 homers (playing a park that makes it easy on lefties), or 55 RBI. His steals dropped off last year but his CS percentage has always been higher than you would like. He's missed a fair amount of games and he is getting to that point in his career (30) where speed players often see a pretty significant drop off in their abilities. Just think there are too many holes in his game for $13 million a year. I would have been under $10 million. sacredheart 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lemongoat Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 He's a good on base guy, a burner, and plays a tremendous LF Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebiglebowski Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 I just think there is something wrong with the picture when a "good on base guy and a burner" can't cross 100 runs. He's not even a given to cross 90 runs in a full season, and that comes with 50 rbis. Defense is great and all, but you can't completely overlook the fact that despite his peripherals, he has just not created runs throughout his career. Maybe it's baserunning skills? Being fast isn't everything. Still have to be able to time pitchers, take the extra base, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 i have a hard time believing someone lower down on the phillies' ladder was the one who reported it without upper management's knowledge. even if it did happen somehow i agree with mike, that's on amaro. idiots. orioles went all in this year by screwing next year's draft and i think they'll be lucky to be much more than a .500 team this years draft, they lose both picks from the draft in June Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lemongoat Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 I just think there is something wrong with the picture when a "good on base guy and a burner" can't cross 100 runs. He's not even a given to cross 90 runs in a full season, and that comes with 50 rbis. Defense is great and all, but you can't completely overlook the fact that despite his peripherals, he has just not created runs throughout his career. Maybe it's baserunning skills? Being fast isn't everything. Still have to be able to time pitchers, take the extra base, etc. In 10 and 11 the majority of his AB's came hitting 7, 8 or 9. Last season he led off all year, but the Yankees stunk. I would be worried that his 2 truly exceptional seasons are two years removed, but not worried enough to think The Yankees didn't get a good deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kyacrash Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 I don't think the Gardner deal is bad as far as dollar amount and years go, but I do find it odd that the yankees felt the need to lock him up even though they have Ellsbury now. I just don't see the need as much anymore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebiglebowski Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 Maybe they just felt a need to keep the one everyday position player that came through their system Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chamb117 Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 this years draft, they lose both picks from the draft in June oops i misspoke, i was thinking in terms of the guys who will debut in the minors next year (although i always forget about short season A). but yeah the two lost picks and the o's are basically all in for 2014. poor timing. might as well go for santana at this point Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 oops i misspoke, i was thinking in terms of the guys who will debut in the minors next year (although i always forget about short season A). but yeah the two lost picks and the o's are basically all in for 2014. poor timing. might as well go for santana at this point they actually can debut in july in the minors, the signing date was moved up to a couple weeks after the draft, its no longer mid august, so a number of players make their minor league debut in late july/august and play fall/winter ball. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GHOSTDRONES Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 It's their fault for not controlling their staff, they should know better than that Rumor is that it isnt Ruben Amaro Jr or any of his assistants but instead a smaller role person in the office that reported them. It sounds like spin control from the Phillies organization after at least one college coach said their scouts were not welcome at the games any longer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whoshotthefrog Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 I just think there is something wrong with the picture when a "good on base guy and a burner" can't cross 100 runs. He's not even a given to cross 90 runs in a full season, and that comes with 50 rbis. Defense is great and all, but you can't completely overlook the fact that despite his peripherals, he has just not created runs throughout his career. Maybe it's baserunning skills? Being fast isn't everything. Still have to be able to time pitchers, take the extra base, etc. You hit the nail on the head. I just can't see him being worth $13 million a season. His stats are comparable to Denard Span and no way any team would pay Span $13 million a year. $6-8 million probably is the ballpark where Garnder should have been paid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 also, this cruz deal has to kill Morales' contract. $8 mil and a 2nd rd pick? no way someone pays $8 mil and a 1st rd pick to sign a lesser player in Morales. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chamb117 Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 except the orioles! they already dashed their first two rounds. third round pick is nothing at this point. i couldn't even name you their DH right now (is it urrutia?)... at this point they've got the remainder of the free agent market cornered because their marginal cost is so low compared to all other teams Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 except the orioles! they already dashed their first two rounds. third round pick is nothing at this point. i couldn't even name you their DH right now (is it urrutia?)... at this point they've got the remainder of the free agent market cornered because their marginal cost is so low compared to all other teams what the O's pull this: sign Cruz and Morales, lose 2nd and 3rd rd picks Morales and Cruz both have good years offer Morales and Cruz QO's in off-season if either turn down the QO they just got themselves an additional draft pick at a higher slot than what they gave up (and slot money) in the 2015 draft, esentially 3 1st rd picks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lemongoat Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 You hit the nail on the head. I just can't see him being worth $13 million a season. His stats are comparable to Denard Span and no way any team would pay Span $13 million a year. $6-8 million probably is the ballpark where Garnder should have been paid. I think you would be surprised at what Span would get on the open market, and he's never had a 6 win season Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lemongoat Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 what the O's pull this: sign Cruz and Morales, lose 2nd and 3rd rd picks Morales and Cruz both have good years offer Morales and Cruz QO's in off-season if either turn down the QO they just got themselves an additional draft pick at a higher slot than what they gave up (and slot money) in the 2015 draft, esentially 3 1st rd picks For Cruz and Morales to receive contract offers better than the $14 mil qualifying offer, they would have to demolish their 2013 seasons otherwise they would have gotten those deals this offseason Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 For Cruz and Morales to receive contract offers better than the $14 mil qualifying offer, they would have to demolish their 2013 seasons otherwise they would have gotten those deals this offseason contracts dont have to be better than $14 million, not sure where that factors in Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chamb117 Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 nelson cruz was absolutely belting home runs before he got busted. he can hit 40 home runs if he can actually manage to play a full season, and any team will pay for that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebiglebowski Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 Yeah I wonder if Cruz is planned to be the DH. I think he is considered an above average hitter and a defensive liability. I think what lemon goat is getting at is that Morales and Cruz effed up by not taking $14 million deals. If the orioles offer those next year, they will take them. Thus, no draft picks unless they really step their game up and get a big multi year deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebiglebowski Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 Kind of surprised at what Cruz got. I didn't expect $15 million a year for 3 years, but I wouldn't be surprised if he was thinking "I'll turn down $14 million for 1 year and get $20 million for 2". He must have greatly overestimated his worth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whoshotthefrog Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 nelson cruz was absolutely belting home runs before he got busted. he can hit 40 home runs if he can actually manage to play a full season, and any team will pay for that Cruz is a nice bat, but I will disagree with you that he is capable of hitting 40 home runs in a full season. He has at least one trip to the DL every season, and he has hit 30 or more home runs just once in his careeer. The one season where he played 159 games he only hit 24 home runs. He hasn't even come close to 40 hr mark at all in his career, and I don't think we ever will. However, I do think Cruz is good for 25-28 hr and 80-85 rbi's a year which is still pretty nice to have in the lineup. GHOSTDRONES 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sacredheart Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 I havent followed Cruz or Peralta's career much and stopped paying attention all together when they got caught, but is there any rationale as to why Peralta got a big multiyear deal while Cruz had to settle for this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 if you could take one of the following two players (2080 games over 13 seasons of the same age-range) who would you take? if you know who either player is, please dont say. this was a conversation a buddy and I had a few nights ago, kinda curious what everyone would do A.) 1261 runs, 2742 hits, 323 2b, 83 3b, 111 HR, 695 RBI, 472 SB, .319/.361/.775 B.) 1377 runs, 2658 hits, 511 2b, 82 3b, 106 HR, 775 RBI, 127 SB, .315/.390/.823 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GHOSTDRONES Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 I havent followed Cruz or Peralta's career much and stopped paying attention all together when they got caught, but is there any rationale as to why Peralta got a big multiyear deal while Cruz had to settle for this? The position that Peralta plays versus Cruz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GHOSTDRONES Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 if you could take one of the following two players (2080 games over 13 seasons of the same age-range) who would you take? if you know who either player is, please dont say. this was a conversation a buddy and I had a few nights ago, kinda curious what everyone would do A.) 1261 runs, 2742 hits, 323 2b, 83 3b, 111 HR, 695 RBI, 472 SB, .319/.361/.775 B.) 1377 runs, 2658 hits, 511 2b, 82 3b, 106 HR, 775 RBI, 127 SB, .315/.390/.823 Do they play the same position? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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