NHL Discussion

[brad]

other than the obvious (crosby, malkin etc) who have the pens drafted and developed through their farm system in recent years?

Fleury most notably. But then there's:

- Scuderi

- Goligoski

- Kennedy

- Staal

- Letang

- Talbot

.

fleury was a number one overall pick (in maybe the greatest draft class of all time). i think he means outside of the top 5 or outside of the 1st round.

- Scuderi - becoming a great player and was drafted 134 - so that counts

- Goligoski - we shall see

- Kennedy - he's all right

- Staal - 2nd overall pick...doesn't count

- Letang - too early to tell, has talent...2nd round pick though

- Talbot - he is okay.

[brad]

If the Wings didn't trade Zetterberg for Crosby they would be flat out fucking insane.

Crosby (21 years old) 290 132 265 397, 1.36 pts/game

Zetterberg (28 years old) 432 183 222 405 0.94 pts/game

Now, Crosby isn't even close to his prime. It won't hit for another 3-4 years. Yet, head-to-head against Zetterberg in Henrik's prime Crosby is averaging close to a half-point more per game. That's 40 more points per season and that includes Crosby's rookie year when he was all of 18 years old. Crosby will be a much better than Henrik over the course of their respective careers. That's just an unbiased fact.

zetterberg is one if if not the single best two way forward in the league and has shut crosby down this entire series

[crime]

detroit would never go after crosby. a) they have no need for him. he's not the type of player they would bring into their organization.

guarenteed if you sat down with ken holland and asked him if he had any intrest in bringing crosby to detroit he would say no. the wings aren't the type of team that goes out and tries to buy themself a team or try to bring in a player to fill a gap. yes there have been exceptions to that over the years. but on a whole they're not a rent a player team. they do so well because they have a team mentality instead of a player mentality. the wings do so well because they function well as a team and have players who can step up and fill in for other players if they're injured etc.

with that being said the wings would never trade three players for one player because they would be losing way more than they're gaining. using the three players you said (as an example) the team would lose a lot of depth in return for one good player. another reason detroit are so good. they have depth. and they're not going to trade that away for a star player. overall any combination of players on the wings bring more to the team than crosby could as an indiviudal. detroit has goal scorers and guys who can handle the puck (datsyuk, for instance, is probably the best puck handler in the league). they have no need for crosby.

detroit does not build their team the same way pretty much every other team in the league does and i'm not being condesnding here, but most fans of other teams can't wrap their head around this. they have a philosphy that depth is much stronger than a single player. they don't subscribe to this idea that if you buy a star the rest will come bullshit.

i could sit here and debate this until i'm blue in the face. but unless you're a red wings fan you're not going to understand how little value crosby (or any other "superstar") holds for the red wings. they've got their superstars (including hossa who wanted to come to detroit ... as well as datsyuk, zetterburg and lindstrom who the wings drafted and developed).

[sgoodcore]

If the Wings didn't trade Zetterberg for Crosby they would be flat out fucking insane.

Crosby (21 years old) 290 132 265 397, 1.36 pts/game

Zetterberg (28 years old) 432 183 222 405 0.94 pts/game

Now, Crosby isn't even close to his prime. It won't hit for another 3-4 years. Yet, head-to-head against Zetterberg in Henrik's prime Crosby is averaging close to a half-point more per game. That's 40 more points per season and that includes Crosby's rookie year when he was all of 18 years old. Crosby will be a much better than Henrik over the course of their respective careers. That's just an unbiased fact.

zetterberg is one if if not the single best two way forward in the league and has shut crosby down this entire series

See more edits and then re-think this.

And as for counting can't miss picks, talk to the Sens about one Alexander Daigle. Where you're drafted doesn't guarantee shit. Take a look at how many goaltenders drafted high were busts. I mean the Wings have done inordinately well in higher rounds but that doesn't mean some of that isn't luck too.

[sgoodcore]

detroit would never go after crosby. a) they have no need for him. he's not the type of player they would bring into their organization.

guarenteed if you sat down with ken holland and asked him if he had any intrest in bringing crosby to detroit he would say no. the wings aren't the type of team that goes out and tries to buy themself a team or try to bring in a player to fill a gap. yes there have been exceptions to that over the years. but on a whole they're not a rent a player team. they do so well because they have a team mentality instead of a player mentality. the wings do so well because they function well as a team and have players who can step up and fill in for other players if they're injured etc.

with that being said the wings would never trade three players for one player because they would be losing way more than they're gaining. using the three players you said (as an example) the team would lose a lot of depth in return for one good player. another reason detroit are so good. they have depth. and they're not going to trade that away for a star player. overall any combination of players on the wings bring more to the team than crosby could as an indiviudal. detroit has goal scorers and guys who can handle the puck (datsyuk, for instance, is probably the best puck handler in the league). they have no need for crosby.

detroit does not build their team the same way pretty much every other team in the league does and i'm not being condesnding here, but most fans of other teams can't wrap their head around this. they have a philosphy that depth is much stronger than a single player. they don't subscribe to this idea that if you buy a star the rest will come bullshit.

i could sit here and debate this until i'm blue in the face. but unless you're a red wings fan you're not going to understand how little value crosby (or any other "superstar") holds for the red wings. they've got their superstars (including hossa who wanted to come to detroit ... as well as datsyuk, zetterburg and lindstrom who the wings drafted and developed).

You don't think Yzerman was a star? Fedorov? Even Fetisov who was, at a time the best defenseman in the world? How about Hull who they brought in to help win another championship? Keith Primeau? Or how about Brendan Shanahan? Dino Ciccarelli? He was a 500-goal scorer afterall.

Make no mistake, the Wings would love to have a team of stars, they just can't do it so they've gone another route. But you go on believing whatever you want as far-fetched as it may be.

[brad]

okay sure, but the "can't miss picks" doesn't mean the team drafts well because they work out.

like, the pens didn't spend much time devolpeing staal, malkin, crosby, fluery, etc.

and as for your edits - nobody is denying that crosby has a huge ceiling, but he will never reach the two way typeness of zetterberg. hell, malkin is probably the better player on the pens anyway.

the way a few teams build themselves (especially the red wings) makes me believe they value two way forwards more than big point scorers.

[brad]

sammy - Keith Primeau

don't get me started on that overrated bastard!

[drabley]

tells me it must be pure coincidence. always doesn't change the fact that you still ignore my ownings.

Tells me that others can at least respect some of the things I say whether they agree or not.

And I'm ignoring these "ownings" for the benefit of the rest of the board who are likely growing tired of this shit day after day.

[sgoodcore]

Okay, since I guess no one rooting against the Pens can be anywhere near even-handed this has just become silly.

Lets go Penguins, finish this shit by winning 2 more and lets all go home happy.

[brad]

tells me it must be pure coincidence. always doesn't change the fact that you still ignore my ownings.

Tells me that others can at least respect some of the things I say whether they agree or not.

And I'm ignoring these "ownings" for the benefit of the rest of the board who are likely growing tired of this shit day after day.

lol, sure. in the words of you, "put up or shut up"

[brad]

all of the wings talk reminded me of a great article i read about lidstrom.

Holland has long vowed to retire the same day as Lidstrom, a wan half joke that underscores the significance of the defenseman. Lidstrom had scored 13 points this postseason and had sent the boyish Kane to his room (no points, four shots in the first three games) before missing Sunday’s Game 4 with a lower body injury. In 2009 you can’t find a player like Lidstrom; in 1989 you could barely find him at all. He was the NHL’s version of the young Lana Turner, except with a better agent. Rather than at a Hollywood soda fountain, he was “discovered” in the Swedish city of Vasteras by Detroit’s European scout Christer Rockstrom. Today, with information so abundant and scouting so sophisticated, Rockstrom would be taking a number deli-style to look at Lidstrom instead of having a once-in-a-generation player essentially to himself.

A Vasteras forward named Jorgen Holmberg had called Rockstrom about a young blueliner Holmberg couldn’t beat in practice. “Every scout gets tips,” Rockstrom says. “Most of the time the person calling has no idea of the qualifications to play in the NHL, but you still have to go and check them out.” Because Lidstrom played so infrequently—he would have two assists in just 19 games with the Vasteras senior team as an 18-year-old—Rockstrom would make the 80-minute drive from Stockholm to Vasteras to watch practice. Smith later went to catch a glimpse of the defenseman and quickly became a believer.

“I’d been telling Jimmy D that Lidstrom would be available in the third round, and we couldn’t pick him after that [because of his age],” Smith says. “People didn’t know him, and [the NHL’s Central Scouting Bureau] had him way down. he’d be seen the next year and be a sure first-rounder.”

But Lidstrom already was in the crosshairs, not of a team but of an agent: Toronto-based Don Meehan, with whom Rockstrom was friendly. When Meehan went to Sweden, Rockstrom would let him tag along on scouting trips. One night the scout brought him to Vasteras, which had Patrik Juhlin, a forward who would go to Philadelphia with the 34th pick in 1989. “After the first period, I said to Christer, ‘That number 9 [Lidstrom] looks like a helluva player,’ “ Meehan says. “He says, ‘No, you watch number 7. That number 9, you wouldn’t be interested.’ He said he didn’t know much about number 9, and that maybe he’d just had a good period. After the second, I said, ‘That’s more than a good period. That’s a helluva game.’ I asked him to introduce me after the game, and I presented my credentials.”

When Meehan returned to Toronto, he phoned Smith, also a friend. “What do you think about Lidstrom?” Meehan asked.

“Lidster?” Smith replied. Doug Lidster was a veteran defenseman with the Canucks.

“Lidstrom.”

“Don’t know the guy.”

“F--- off, you know him.”

“No. You sure it’s Lid . . . Lid-what?”

“Well, he just retained me.”

The line went dead for 10 seconds. “Dammit, you can’t mention him,” Smith finally said. “We’re going to take him, but don’t tell anybody. And you can’t bring him to the draft.”

Smith was afraid that Meehan would raise Lidstrom’s profile by talking him up to G.M.’s or parading him around the Twin Cities during draft week. Smith even stopped mentioning Lidstrom to other Wings staffers for fear someone might drop the name in conversation. “There was a blackout,” Holland says. “Neil told me about Lidstrom when he got back from Europe that January—we were best friends at the time—but he saw no need for anybody else in the organization to [scout him].”

When Lidstrom joined Detroit in 1991–92, he had 60 points in 80 games and finished second in rookie of the year voting to Pavel Bure, who was taken by Vancouver in the sixth round, three picks before the Wings planned to draft him. Now Lidstrom is a finalist for his seventh Norris Trophy.

“Getting Lidstrom took what people think of as scouting but really wasn’t,” Smith says. “This was a rare time you find a diamond no one else sees. I was really concerned about using a valuable chip [a third-round pick]. The easiest thing would have been to take a junior player. Everyone would have left the draft happy. And if it hadn’t worked out, everyone would have shared the misfortune of that pick. But this was totally going to be on me and Christer. And if it didn’t work out, people would say, ‘Neil leaves [for New York] and sticks us with these dogs in Europe.’ “

Smith did leave that summer to run the Rangers, with whom he won a Stanley Cup in 1994. (Lidster, but not Lidstrom, was on that team.) Rockstrom went with Smith, but not before recommending a friend, Hakan Andersson, as his replacement with Detroit. As their draft began to pan out, the Red Wings became increasingly committed to scouring European rinks for late-round treasures, a commitment that has not waned.

[drabley]

The Quebec Nordiques were far and away the best drafting team this league has ever seen. They are also one of the worst. What happened to them? They could barely make it out of the first round.

Point is, it's a crap shoot.

And what does development time have to to with anything? Sure Pens were fortunate they didn't kill MAF by throwing him to the dogs so early, but it worked out.

I wish the Flyers were still in the playoffs. Would give some disgruntled folks something to talk about asides nonsense.

[sgoodcore]

There's no doubt the Wings have scouted tremendously well but to say they sacrifice the desire for superstars and are somehow a super franchise no one can match or understand is ludicrous. Especially while not admitting getting guys in the sixth round and having them contribute for years is as much luck as scouting. And frankly, Colorado did the same thing with a ton of the guys they won Cups with and now look where they are. So it can happen to the Wings like it happened to the Avs. You stop believing its possible, think you're infallible and you'll find yourself in the gutter with your pants around your ankles and Vaseline on your asshole.

[drabley]

Tells me that others can at least respect some of the things I say whether they agree or not.

And I'm ignoring these "ownings" for the benefit of the rest of the board who are likely growing tired of this shit day after day.

lol, sure. in the words of you, "put up or shut up"

I'll be in Philadelphia in a couple of weeks.

Let's see you exude some confidence in person.

Twat.

[kirbypuckett]

If the Wings didn't trade Zetterberg for Crosby they would be flat out fucking insane.

Crosby (21 years old) 290 132 265 397, 1.36 pts/game

Zetterberg (28 years old) 432 183 222 405 0.94 pts/game

Now, Crosby isn't even close to his prime. It won't hit for another 3-4 years. Yet, head-to-head against Zetterberg in Henrik's prime Crosby is averaging close to a half-point more per game. That's 40 more points per season and that includes Crosby's rookie year when he was all of 18 years old. Crosby will be a much better than Henrik over the course of their respective careers. That's just an unbiased fact.

zetterberg is one if if not the single best two way forward in the league and has shut crosby down this entire series

http://d.yimg.com/a/p/sp/getty/9c/fullj.edde5a2726e9b4af74b5124e5a31ed11/edde5a2726e9b4af74b5124e5a31ed11-getty-88035444mh047_stanley_cup_f.jpg

[crime]

detroit would never go after crosby. a) they have no need for him. he's not the type of player they would bring into their organization.

guarenteed if you sat down with ken holland and asked him if he had any intrest in bringing crosby to detroit he would say no. the wings aren't the type of team that goes out and tries to buy themself a team or try to bring in a player to fill a gap. yes there have been exceptions to that over the years. but on a whole they're not a rent a player team. they do so well because they have a team mentality instead of a player mentality. the wings do so well because they function well as a team and have players who can step up and fill in for other players if they're injured etc.

with that being said the wings would never trade three players for one player because they would be losing way more than they're gaining. using the three players you said (as an example) the team would lose a lot of depth in return for one good player. another reason detroit are so good. they have depth. and they're not going to trade that away for a star player. overall any combination of players on the wings bring more to the team than crosby could as an indiviudal. detroit has goal scorers and guys who can handle the puck (datsyuk, for instance, is probably the best puck handler in the league). they have no need for crosby.

detroit does not build their team the same way pretty much every other team in the league does and i'm not being condesnding here, but most fans of other teams can't wrap their head around this. they have a philosphy that depth is much stronger than a single player. they don't subscribe to this idea that if you buy a star the rest will come bullshit.

i could sit here and debate this until i'm blue in the face. but unless you're a red wings fan you're not going to understand how little value crosby (or any other "superstar") holds for the red wings. they've got their superstars (including hossa who wanted to come to detroit ... as well as datsyuk, zetterburg and lindstrom who the wings drafted and developed).

You don't think Yzerman was a star? Fedorov? Even Fetisov who was, at a time the best defenseman in the world? How about Hull who they brought in to help win another championship? Keith Primeau? Or how about Brendan Shanahan? Dino Ciccarelli? He was a 500-goal scorer afterall.

Make no mistake, the Wings would love to have a team of stars, they just can't do it so they've gone another route. But you go on believing whatever you want as far-fetched as it may be.

Yzerman, Fedorov and Primeau were all drafted by the wings.

as for the other players you should learn to read as i clearly stated there have been exceptions over the years.

[brad]

There's no doubt the Wings have scouted tremendously well but to say they sacrifice the desire for superstars and are somehow a super franchise no one can match or understand is ludicrous.

i agree here. i'm just saying that the wings obviously value great two way play over anything else. who knows what the wings would do if they were offered crosby for zetterberg +.

i am willing to bet they would say no though.

[brad]

zetterberg is one if if not the single best two way forward in the league and has shut crosby down this entire series

http://d.yimg.com/a/p/sp/getty/9c/fullj.edde5a2726e9b4af74b5124e5a31ed11/edde5a2726e9b4af74b5124e5a31ed11-getty-88035444mh047_stanley_cup_f.jpg

did you not watch game 1 and 2? i don't think zetterberg was on the ice when crosby scored.

[brad]

lol, sure. in the words of you, "put up or shut up"

I'll be in Philadelphia in a couple of weeks.

Let's see you exude some confidence in person.

Twat.

lol, keep avoiding the hockey talk. post 3484 (among others) is waiting

[kirbypuckett]

http://d.yimg.com/a/p/sp/getty/9c/fullj.edde5a2726e9b4af74b5124e5a31ed11/edde5a2726e9b4af74b5124e5a31ed11-getty-88035444mh047_stanley_cup_f.jpg

did you not watch game 1 and 2? i don't think zetterberg was on the ice when crosby scored.

Crosby has played very well. He hit a few posts, etc... Zetterberg is doing a great job, no doubt, but he's also wearing down. He's playing 25 minutes of very high intensity hockey. Sid is playing his normal minutes.

To say Crosby will never be as good of a two-way player as Zetterberg is ridiculous. The bias is insane on that. As mentioned earlier, Sid has 10 years left to keep growing and growing.

Remember his rookie year when he sucked at faceoffs? He's pretty damn good now. Crosby will become better defensively over the years.

[sgoodcore]

http://d.yimg.com/a/p/sp/getty/9c/fullj.edde5a2726e9b4af74b5124e5a31ed11/edde5a2726e9b4af74b5124e5a31ed11-getty-88035444mh047_stanley_cup_f.jpg

did you not watch game 1 and 2? i don't think zetterberg was on the ice when crosby scored.

That's what playing at home does for the match-ups.

[kirbypuckett]

You don't think Yzerman was a star? Fedorov? Even Fetisov who was, at a time the best defenseman in the world? How about Hull who they brought in to help win another championship? Keith Primeau? Or how about Brendan Shanahan? Dino Ciccarelli? He was a 500-goal scorer afterall.

Make no mistake, the Wings would love to have a team of stars, they just can't do it so they've gone another route. But you go on believing whatever you want as far-fetched as it may be.

Yzerman, Fedorov and Primeau were all drafted by the wings.

as for the other players you should learn to read as i clearly stated there have been exceptions over the years.

It's kind of hard to read when you lack the ability to type correctly. Sorry, but I can't read your wall-of-text posts.

[brad]

did you not watch game 1 and 2? i don't think zetterberg was on the ice when crosby scored.

That's what playing at home does for the match-ups.

of course.

To say Crosby will never be as good of a two-way player as Zetterberg is ridiculous. The bias is insane on that.

i disagree. not many players will ever be as good as zetterberg in the two way sense. probably one of the best of all time. no bias, just zetterberg is a stud.

[sgoodcore]

I wouldn't go that far with Zetterberg.

- Bob Gainey

- Guy Carbonneau

- Bobby Clarke

- Rod Brind'Amour

All are probably as good if not better two-way players than Zett.

[kirbypuckett]

That's what playing at home does for the match-ups.

of course.

To say Crosby will never be as good of a two-way player as Zetterberg is ridiculous. The bias is insane on that.

i disagree. not many players will ever be as good as zetterberg in the two way sense. probably one of the best of all time. no bias, just zetterberg is a stud.

There's a chance he won't, but there's a chance he will too. You said NEVER as if it's concrete. Mario wasn't a great two-way player a few years into the league, but he became a better one of the years. Had he not had so many physical problems I'm sure he would have been better defensively.

Malkin was AWFUL in his rookie season defensively, but he's become drastically better this season.

Look, it's impossible to discuss anything with you guys. You hate Crosby so much that you'd probably take some career AHLer on him if you were building a team just to prove a point. You can dislike a player, but you lose tons of credibility when you make such blatantly dumb comments.

I need to stay out of these Crosby discussions!

What was Zetterberg doing when he was 21 by the way?