Beginner’s Guide to Turntables & Hi–Fi *READ 1st PAGE BEFORE POSTING NEW THREADS / BASIC QUESTIONS*

[Guest]

Sounds like a plan, thanks!

 

There is a cleaner looking Kenwood KD-3100 on craigslist, but the seller has no contact info. Any better of a table if I can get a hold of him?

 

http://akroncanton.craigslist.org/ele/5088023827.html

[Guest]

What's everyone's opinions on linear tracking tables? I know they need more up keep, but my buddy have a Technics SL-3 he can give me. I was thinking of using it as a second set-up in my bedroom. I assume it's a p-mount cartridge, like most of those types of tables. I don't don't know much about p-mount, but it looks like Grado and AT makes comparable p-mounts to their lower 1/2 inches mounts.

[raye]

Hi there,

 

Was just wondering why the OP included Stanton in his list of 'stay the hell away froms'? The ST 150 and, to a lesser extent, the T 92 with a Shure M97xe cart are pretty great sounding tables in my opinion (and I don't own one). Genuinley interested to hear other experiences though, as I'm in the market for a table and considering either Stanton or one of the usual suspects (i.e. Rega, Pro ject, ect).

 

Raye.

[allenh]

Hi there,

 

Was just wondering why the OP included Stanton in his list of 'stay the hell away froms'? The ST 150 and, to a lesser extent, the T 92 with a Shure M97xe cart are pretty great sounding tables in my opinion (and I don't own one). Genuinley interested to hear other experiences though, as I'm in the market for a table and considering either Stanton or one of the usual suspects (i.e. Rega, Pro ject, ect).

 

Raye.

 

Someone asked the question about Stanton tables on page 41 which I answered and quoting myself would be just a bit megalomaniac so have a read of that. I've probably said all the below several times as well but basically Stanton make good and bad but none are in the same league as any Rega or a half decent Project for hifi use as that's not what a Stanton table is intended for.

 

Like every other DJ table good and bad they are copies of the venerable Technics SL1200 and are based around the importance for solid build, quick motor start, solid speed stability and adjustable motor speed for pitch or BPM matching when needed, the SL1200 and the better clones can be made to sound very nice but by the time you've spent all that money on upgrades and widgets you could have bought something that sounded even better out of the box for the same money.

 

The biggest problem though with the vast majority of DJ tables is this insistence on straight tonearms with straight headshells which is done for cuing and back cuing as a DJ but is the worst thing you can do for tracking a vinyl groove for normal listening.

 

There is some great technology in some of the DJ tables and some are superbly made but It very much depends what you want your table for and what you are playing it through, if you are DJ'ing then you are going to need two and they better be good quality otherwise they won't last 5 minutes and if its for home use and you are using an average AV receiver and average speakers or average computer or powered speakers then it's not going to matter that much what table or cartridge you use provided it's of average quality as you won't really hear the benefit of anything decent quality wise.

 

But if you have an even a half decent amplifier and speakers then you will hear the benefits a proper hifi turntable and cartridge can give you.

 

And yes the Shure M97xe is a very good cart for the money so put it in a decent table and hear what it can really do.

[ajxd]

TL;DR. Too megalomaniac.

[raye]

Someone asked the question about Stanton tables on page 41 which I answered and quoting myself would be just a bit megalomaniac so have a read of that. I've probably said all the below several times as well but basically Stanton make good and bad but none are in the same league as any Rega or a half decent Project for hifi use as that's not what a Stanton table is intended for.

 

Like every other DJ table good and bad they are copies of the venerable Technics SL1200 and are based around the importance for solid build, quick motor start, solid speed stability and adjustable motor speed for pitch or BPM matching when needed, the SL1200 and the better clones can be made to sound very nice but by the time you've spent all that money on upgrades and widgets you could have bought something that sounded even better out of the box for the same money.

 

The biggest problem though with the vast majority of DJ tables is this insistence on straight tonearms with straight headshells which is done for cuing and back cuing as a DJ but is the worst thing you can do for tracking a vinyl groove for normal listening.

 

There is some great technology in some of the DJ tables and some are superbly made but It very much depends what you want your table for and what you are playing it through, if you are DJ'ing then you are going to need two and they better be good quality otherwise they won't last 5 minutes and if its for home use and you are using an average AV receiver and average speakers or average computer or powered speakers then it's not going to matter that much what table or cartridge you use provided it's of average quality as you won't really hear the benefit of anything decent quality wise.

 

But if you have an even a half decent amplifier and speakers then you will hear the benefits a proper hifi turntable and cartridge can give you.

 

And yes the Shure M97xe is a very good cart for the money so put it in a decent table and hear what it can really do.

 

Thanks for the reply. I did catch the earlier discussion but it doesn't really address the points I mentioned in my post, and I can't agree in so much as 'Stantons are only for DJs'. It seems that plenty of people are using them as standard home turntables, purely for listening to. Neither model that I mentioned comes with a straight tone arm, and in fact I can only think of one or two in the entire range that do come fitted with the straight arm. That said, I really do appreciate the information.

Take a listen to this and tell me what you think RE sound quality (bearing in mind that it is on Youtube):

 

That's a Stanton T92.

If you can find a comparable clip with either a Rega or a Pro-ject within the same price range - I'm all ears.

[YouTwo]

After buying the Stanton and a Shure cartridge, wouldn't you be in Pro-Ject Debut Carbon price range?  

 

I would listen to allenh.  He usually gives very helpful advise.

[raye]

After buying the Stanton and a Shure cartridge, wouldn't you be in Pro-Ject Debut Carbon price range?  

 

I would listen to allenh.  He usually gives very helpful advise.

 

Thanks for the reply - I'm definitley listening. But I'm not convinced as to why the Pro-ject is better than the Stanton - either the 92 or the 150 - I don't hear it, but I'm open to being convinced - so convince me.

[allenh]

Yes a lot of people do use them for listening purposes only and I've suggested them a few times myself along with Gemini and others but it's only if you can get them cheap used and then they are good value for money but for what they cost new there are a lot of places you can spend your money better hifi wise.

 

I know exactly what they sound like and the SL1200's and the Vestax and the Gemini's etc, etc, etc. And I have owned versions of them at some time or another professionally. I still have a pair of LAD tables that blow all of the above out of the water sound wise but compared to a proper hifi table they just don't sound as good as their price point against a proper hifi table

 

I have nothing against them and If you like them that's entirely up to you but listening to a turntable on youtube is missing the point entirely, try listening to some proper hifi in front of you and then tell me you can't hear the difference.

[Guest]

If you're happy with your set-up, why change it? Everyone has opinions and different listening preferences.

[allenh]

After buying the Stanton and a Shure cartridge, wouldn't you be in Pro-Ject Debut Carbon price range?  

 

I would listen to allenh.  He usually gives very helpful advise.

 

Could you repeat that a bit louder for the wife? She doesn't believe me

[raye]

Thanks for the reply, Allenh. Sell me the Rega rp1 or the Pro-ject Debut Carbon over the Stanton T92 or ST150. At the end of the day I want the best table available for under £500, but so far I'm not convinced that either of those models do anything better than the Stanton - in fact, quite the reverse. It's frustrating in a way that there are no dedicated retailers where you can actually demo these turntables in the UK anymore.

 

Edit: you didn't listen to the clip, did you ...

[allenh]

TL;DR. Too megalomaniac.

Along with my big blue head

[Freki]

Thanks for the reply, Allenh. Sell me the Rega rp1 or the Pro-ject Debut Carbon over the Stanton T92 or ST150. At the end of the day I want the best table available for under £500, but so far I'm not convinced that either of those models do anything better than the Stanton - in fact, quite the reverse. It's frustrating in a way that there are no dedicated retailers where you can actually demo these turntables in the UK anymore.

 

Edit: you didn't listen to the clip, did you ...

 

There's plenty of resources on the internet. Maybe you can find one that gives you the answers you want to hear.

[Tardcore]

Edit: you didn't listen to the clip, did you ...

 

listening to audio gear on youtube is not very useful.

[raye]

There's plenty of resources on the internet. Maybe you can find one that gives you the answers you want to hear.

 

Funny you should say that - that's exactly how I came across this site.

 

The only thing I do want to hear are the reasons to back up the claim that Stanton turntables aren't very good for home use, whereas Rega RP1s and Pro-Ject Debut Carbons are. If you can't back up your own claims, other than through the medium of personal preference, then this thread benefits the few (which is sad, because there's some great information on here in some instances).

 

listening to audio gear on youtube is not very useful.

 

I'd argue that it is, in some respects. While you can't get a completely accurate representation, you can - if well captured - get a relatively basic idea of how a piece of equipment is going to sound. In fact, I'd argue that it's especially useful given the amount of people who may be looking for a turntable but have nowhere to demo one. If you actually listened to the clip and played that track against a FLAC version of the same track, you'd hear the difference in dynamic range immediately. So, while I can see where you're coming from, it's not an either/or. One size doesn't fit all. Etc. If you've never listened to vinyl before that video may help change your mind.

 

I'm quite surprised at the replies I've had so far. Again, all I'm asking for is a justification beyond the personal as to why a Stanton T92 or ST150 (with Shure cart) do not at least match up to the Rega RP1 or the Pro-Ject Debut Carbon. This information has got to be useful for anyone who is considering a turntable and coming up against a realm of new players that have severely mixed online reviews. I was hoping that some of the posters here could clarify this difference so that people don't make a first time mistake and wind up being turned off from vinyl altogether. As I said - I really am open to some real input here, and I'm looking forward to your replies.

 

Edit: I'm about to contact Richer Sounds in Edinburgh to see if they're willing to demo the Carbon. If so I'll set this up for tomorrow and travel there in the morning. Any advice as to amp/speakers to request also? I'm thinking maybe these:

 

http://www.richersounds.com/product/standmount-speakers/q-acoustics/2020i-gr/qaco-2020i-gra

 

http://www.richersounds.com/product/amplifiers-receivers/cambridge-audio/topaz-am5/camb-topaz-am5-blk

 

or maybe:

 

http://www.richersounds.com/product/amplifiers-receivers/denon/pma520ae/deno-pma520

 

What do you guys think?

[allenh]

Thanks for the reply, Allenh. Sell me the Rega rp1 or the Pro-ject Debut Carbon over the Stanton T92 or ST150. At the end of the day I want the best table available for under £500, but so far I'm not convinced that either of those models do anything better than the Stanton - in fact, quite the reverse. It's frustrating in a way that there are no dedicated retailers where you can actually demo these turntables in the UK anymore.

 

Edit: you didn't listen to the clip, did you ...

 

Like I said above it does depend very much what you are listening through and listening via youtube is going to tell you nothing, TBH if that's the level you are looking for then you really are missing the point and the turntable or the medium for that matter isn't going to make a lot of difference to you.

 

All the turntables you list have their pros' and cons but fundamentally what amp and speakers are used make a big big difference, as I tried to explain above if you plug an St150 and a RP1 or a Debut Carbon into a crap amp and speakers they will all sound about as crap as each other but as you go up the food chain amp and speaker wise each will have a ceiling where you don't hear any difference and in that the Stanton will drop out first then the Project and then the Rega, The same is true of the cartridge you put into them, both the Project and Rega can handle and get the benefit from cartridges more expensive than the table itself the Stanton can't.

 

I hate using the car analogy but think Stanton=people carrier and the Rega and Project=sports car. Both get you from a to b but one does it faster, is more engaging and is more fun doing it.

 

As to there being nowhere to audition these things, google hifi shops or buy a magazine as there are many many good hifi shops in the UK still and the chains like Richer Sounds or Sevenoaks Hifi would be able to help you but I do get the feeling they would be wasting their time as am I

[allenh]

 

The only thing I do want to hear are the reasons to back up the claim that Stanton turntables aren't very good for home use, whereas Rega RP1s and Pro-Ject Debut Carbons are. If you can't back up your own claims, other than through the medium of personal preference, then this thread benefits the few (which is sad, because there's some great information on here in some instances).

 

 

It comes across as you want to hear that the Stanton is the equal of the Rega or Project and don't want to hear anything different

 

I can't prove it to you without you listening to them all in the flesh and even then we may still disagree, you talk about personal preference which is a big differentiator in audio and why you will get very differing views and reviews but in basic engineering terms they can't be the same because they come from totally different concepts, they are constructed of totally different materials and are intended for totally different usage so have to sound different, whether you like one difference or another is purely down to personal taste.

 

I didn't say Stantons were no good for home use I said you could buy better for the same money. My point comes from a standpoint of bang for your buck and new the Stanton is more overpriced than the Project or Rega based purely on sound quality but when you ask for the best table you can buy for £500 then I would give a totally different answer and it wouldn't be a new one, again it would be based on personal preference though.

[raye]

Allenh, I appreciate the above replies (apart from the 'wasting my time' part). I don't want to give you the impression that I have any loyalty towards Stanton. I don't. I've never owned one. All I know is that they get a lot of good reviews and a lot of negative reviews online, just like everything else. Just like the Rega and the Carbon. And, like you said, it's bound to be subjective when it comes to audio equipment. I actually do like what I hear in the video posted above, for what it is. It's captured directly from source and isn't a 'cam' recording. I'm not saying that's the peak of what I want in my own set up by a long shot. It's just the only recorded comparison that I have, and I'm yet to find a recording from a Rega or a Carbon that at least equals it. Hopefully, the demo tomorrow will give me pause for thought.

 

Thanks again - I really do appreciate the advice.

 

Edit: please note amendment to last post - you replied while I was typing. Also - I'm curious as to what you would recommend? I'm definitely interested in hearing any suggestions.

[allenh]

Like I say it does very much depend on amplfier and speakers in that everything should be of a similar quality ideally so if you go to Richer Sounds say and buy the cheapest AV amp and speakers they have you won't get the benefit from a decent turntable, also room size and placement are big concerns for speakers so all these things matter from the start.

 

But with a budget of £500 I would go 2nd hand and for a turntable search out a Pink Triangle PT1 with as a minimum a Rega arm or if not an Ariston RD11 or a Systemdek IIX and add some upgrades like an acrylic platter, for an amplifier a Musical Fidelity B1 or better still if you can find one an A1, or a Mission Cyrus one or two or an Audiolab 8000A and for speakers a pair of Kef Coda 7's or for a bigger room a pair of Coda 9's or maybe Rogers LS7's and then find a bit more money for something like a Sumiko Blue Point or Denon DL103 or possibly Benz Micro Gold as cartridge. With some research you should easily be able to buy very respectable and very nice sounding vinyl replay system from the above suggestions for £500, with a little digging about in my spare kit I could put one together for you myself.

 

The only things I would buy new would be the cartridge once I'd worn out whatever came in the turntable and possibly new speakers as speaker manufacturing has come along in leaps and bounds but for the money you can pay for a used pair of Coda 7's I have yet to found anything that comes anywhere near close for anything near the price, the same with the Pink Triangle, I've tried all the tables you are supposed to have and quite a lot of the exotica but always come back to my Pink Triangles

 

Again very much personal preference though.

[raye]

Thanks Allenh, some great info. It seems like there are several options: buy new, and look at enjoying a relatively simple set up with the view to upgrading/replacing as/when, or, buy used for better quality sound and equipment, but suffer the frustration and time of the problems that may come with that (at the minute it's 50/50, and time is the only thing I'm short on). Just to clarify: £500 is the max budget for the table alone.

 

What did you think of the amps and speakers I linked to above, as a basic but good starter set up? Users on another site have all recommended these, but I've never actually heard them before, so I'm curious.

 

You mentioned that you could put a set up together yourself ... I'm interested. Tell me more!

 

Edit: Also, where do you stand on the Technics SL-1200?

[slinch]

I'll just quickly chime in, the OP was written for beginners and the "stay away from" part is clearly aimed at people who are on a very tight budget and are looking to spend the minimum possible on a table. While it's true that the higher priced Stanton products are solid, their lower end models are pretty bad, and I'm sure you can guess which of them someone looking to spend $100 on a new table will be interested in.

 

That said, I still would never recommend the pricier ones either, not because they are crap, but because, as allenh already said, they aren't as good as other options in their respective price range.

 

As for your "convince me" approach, it's a little out of place in my opinion. None of us here are trying to sell anything, our agenda is not to push a certain product, so I certainly don't feel responsible for convincing anyone of anything. You're an adult, you're free to make your own choices, learn from your own experience. We can all offer our experience, it is on you to figure out how useful that advice is and what exactly you can get out of it. Perception of audio quality is very subjective, perception of "good sound" even more so, so all the talking, writing and reading will never be able to convince you of what will be best for you, your own listening should take care of that.

 

However, there are some technical approaches and solutions that are even in theory, as well as practical applications, better than others. If all you're looking for is a list of parts that are responsible for differences in sound quality, it's... well, everything really. From the base, motor, tonearm, electronics, drive type, to wiring, feet, platter size, material and everything in between. Explaining how each of these factors in would take a week of writing per category, at minimum, and even then it wouldn't cover all specifics for every model. If you're interested in any of the technical stuff, there's plenty of knowledge out there already.

 

If you just want a very specific example for two particular models to keep your mind at ease, then ask away, I'm sure someone will be able to help.

[raye]

Slinch - thanks for this. Again, some very useful info.

 

When I said 'convince me', what I really meant was: back up your statement with something tangible, and I'm definitely more than willing to listen. Basically, I was asking for advice. And I still am.

 

Has anyone come across the Teac TN-300?

 

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=667596

 

I'm going to ask RIcher to demo this, too. Let me know if I'm wasting my time with this one.

[slinch]

That Teac looks nice, but I've never heard one. The only thing that bugs me at that price range is the choice of included cart. Not a fan of the tonearm design either, but I shouldn't judge it without hearing what it can do.

 

buy new, and look at enjoying a relatively simple set up with the view to upgrading/replacing as/when, or, buy used for better quality sound and equipment, but suffer the frustration and time of the problems that may come with that (at the minute it's 50/50, and time is the only thing I'm short on).

 

From my experience, the higher you go up the price chain, the safer it is to buy used. In both my HT setup and music setup, only one speaker pair and a phono preamp was bought brand new (though both at over 50% off), everything else I got second hand. The age of everything ranges between 6 and 15 years and everything still works perfectly without a single issue (knock on wood).

 

But allenh probably has more years in audio than I have in being alive, so I'd take his word over mine

[raye]

Thanks Slinch - I've just set up an appointment with Richer Sounds for noon tomorrow, testing three tables, three amps, and three sets of speakers (interchangeably!). I'm sure they'll be thrilled. The Teac is one of the tables, so I'll let you know how that goes. I'm definitely still interested in buying used, too, depending on the 'easy of use'/time factor.