allenh Posted July 7, 2015 Share Posted July 7, 2015 Thanks Allenh, some great info. It seems like there are several options: buy new, and look at enjoying a relatively simple set up with the view to upgrading/replacing as/when, or, buy used for better quality sound and equipment, but suffer the frustration and time of the problems that may come with that (at the minute it's 50/50, and time is the only thing I'm short on). Just to clarify: £500 is the max budget for the table alone. What did you think of the amps and speakers I linked to above, as a basic but good starter set up? Users on another site have all recommended these, but I've never actually heard them before, so I'm curious. You mentioned that you could put a set up together yourself ... I'm interested. Tell me more! Edit: Also, where do you stand on the Technics SL-1200? Go and have a listen, Richer's are very good at demoing and although they will try and push stuff if they think they can if you sound like you know what you want they can be very helpful and as Slinch and I have attempted to get across it is a very subjective subject. Of the ones you've linked to you might be aiming a bit low, Q acoustics speakers are generally very good for the money as are Cambridge amps but you are looking quite low down the range, the upside with these brands is that Richer's have been selling them for quite a while so there are plenty of 2nd hand examples about of their better output. Again though side by side I would buy a used pair of Kef Coda 7's (which incidentally probably would have come from Richer's in the first place) over all but the bigger speakers in the Q acoustics range. The Denon amp against the Cambridge is a good test of what you like to hear so I'd be interested to hear your experience here and it would definitely drive what sort of thing I suggested for you. PM me and I will let you know what I have spare. The SL1200 is a superb thing and any DJ worth the name will have owned or used an example of this table at some point or another and it is the DJ turntable that all others are measured against. That said it was taken on in the 70's by DJ's as the table of choice because of it's battle ship build quality and superb starting torque over all else. Personally I think as a HiFi table they are very overpriced but as a DJ table they are a legend for all the right reasons, myself as I say I have a pair of LAD's which I think are better but again personal preference. That Teac looks nice, but I've never heard one. The only thing that bugs me at that price range is the choice of included cart. Not a fan of the tonearm design either, but I shouldn't judge it without hearing what it can do. From my experience, the higher you go up the price chain, the safer it is to buy used. In both my HT setup and music setup, only one speaker pair and a phono preamp was bought brand new (though both at over 50% off), everything else I got second hand. The age of everything ranges between 6 and 15 years and everything still works perfectly without a single issue (knock on wood). But allenh probably has more years in audio than I have in being alive, so I'd take his word over mine I'm the same with that Teac, I haven't heard one and have exactly the same misgivings as Slinch but of course if it sounds superb those misgivings will magically disappear. Slinch is exactly right, with hifi as you go up the food chain this stuff tends to get looked after and if it's not it tends to stand out like a sore thumb so 2nd hand it isn't as big a gamble as you'd think but also conversely you do have to be wary as if someone spent a lot of money on a bit of kit and didn't look after it they still tend to want a lot of money for it even when it's knackered. And again like Slinch I have a lot of 2nd hand kit although I do have a bit more new and also some self made. Slinch all those years mean is that I've had more time to accumulate hifi I won't part with nothing more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raye Posted July 7, 2015 Share Posted July 7, 2015 Thanks Allenh, appreciate that. Now, if I could pick up a used SL1200 in great condition, would you recommend it as a starter table against the Carbon or the Rega? And if not, please expand. Not trying to trick you here, I just really could use the advice. I'm also testing out the Cambridge Audio AM10 and 351A tomorrow, along with some slightly better speakers. What are your thoughts on those amps? I'm testing out this, too: http://www.richersounds.com/product/turntables/pioneer/plx1000/pion-plx-1000 As the only 'DJ style' table they have in stock, purely for comparison. I'm not exactly a fan of DJ-ing, but I'd like to hear one all the same for comparison. What are your thoughts on that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allenh Posted July 7, 2015 Share Posted July 7, 2015 Thanks Allenh, appreciate that. Now, if I could pick up a used SL1200 in great condition, would you recommend it as a starter table against the Carbon or the Rega? And if not, please expand. Not trying to trick you here, I just really could use the advice. I'm also testing out the Cambridge Audio AM10 and 351A tomorrow, along with some slightly better speakers. What are your thoughts on those amps? I'm testing out this, too: http://www.richersounds.com/product/turntables/pioneer/plx1000/pion-plx-1000 As the only 'DJ style' table they have in stock, purely for comparison. I'm not exactly a fan of DJ-ing, but I'd like to hear one all the same for comparison. What are your thoughts on that? Well firstly there is no such thing as a cheap SL1200, even a well used and worn one has a good value so as an upside you are not likely to loose a lot of money on one and to be honest none of the three you quote are what I'd call starter tables they are what a lot of people would term as their dream tables so you really need to be aiming in the same area amp and speaker wise but to answer your question my choice would be the Rega but after hearing them you may not agree, my choice is based on the arm mostly and the upgrade-ability of the Rega table as you grow rather than needing to replace it. As to that Pioneer I haven't heard one so can't really offer a fair opinion but my first impression is that is a hell of a lot of money for that and also it will be something else badged as a Pioneer rather than made or even assembled by Pioneer as are a lot of the current crop of DJ tables, open them up and the only difference will be the badge and the price but again have a listen to it and see what you think, its a 1200 copy so the fundamentals have to be right but might just not be £600 right. One thing I will say though is you are in Edinburgh and Scotland are responsible for a disproportionate amount of the worlds truly great turntables like MRM, Ariston, STD, Linn and Systemdek so I would be getting all patriotic and buying 2nd hand for sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raye Posted July 7, 2015 Share Posted July 7, 2015 Thanks allenh, I've sent you a quick PM. One thing I would say is that the Stanton 150 is supposed to be, build-wise, on par with the Sl1200s, according to a lot of reviews, forum posts, and DJs who I've spoken to these past two weeks. If the 1200s are good for home use, surely the Stanton 150s should be too? Again - I can't say that I've ever used either, I just want to get to the bottom of the matter. Appreciate your time on here; there's some great advice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allenh Posted July 7, 2015 Share Posted July 7, 2015 I've said this a few times now, Its not that they are bad it's just that in my opinion your money could be better spent for home use. I wouldn't recommend a 1200 for hifi either, don't get me wrong it will do a perfectly good job but to my ears I can get better for the same or less money. A lot of DJ's won't have anything else for home use because that's what they know and what they like and will spend a fortune on upgrades where they could have just bought a really high end hifi deck in the first place, personal opinion again. I will also add re the 150 Vs the 1200 thing if you bought a 150 over a 1200 because you can't buy a new 1200 now or an as new one is just way more money than a 150 then that will colour your judgement on it, personally I prefer the 1200, to me it feels better made, I get the feeling it would be more reliable and I know I would always be able to get a good price back for it with no effort, given the choice my money would go on the 1200 for DJ use all the time and I'm pretty certain if you took a straw poll of DJ's you would get the same answer but for home use if it had to be a DJ able then I would probably choose a 2nd hand 150 for the right price as I know I could get a 150 for a lot less than a 1200 just because of the legend and hype that surrounds the 1200. The other thing to consider is you don't just buy with your ears and some people are more driven with this sort of thing by their eyes, me if I like the sound of it I couldn't care less what it looks like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raye Posted July 7, 2015 Share Posted July 7, 2015 Thanks - I'll PM you back after I've visited Richer tomorrow with details, etc. I'm interested to hear how the Teac measures up; it's getting some good reports for the level of turntable that it is. As for aesthetics - as long as it's mostly black, I'm in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raye Posted July 7, 2015 Share Posted July 7, 2015 Question: belt or direct drive, and why? This is another thing that frequently comes up withe the 'DJ' VS HiFi table thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slinch Posted July 7, 2015 Author Share Posted July 7, 2015 The quick version: each have their pros and cons, but with belt drive it's much easier to greatly reduce the drawbacks on a smaller budget. A very good direct drive is VERY expensive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allenh Posted July 7, 2015 Share Posted July 7, 2015 Each has their fans as well and it can be very difficult to convince people one way or the other. You tend to find Japan and The US favours Direct and Europe favours Belt and that is a big generalisation but I know belts tend to be frowned upon in the US for bad speed stability which is actually down to bad mains and an insistence in letting the neutral float rather than tying to Earth like we do in Europe which I expect is where a lot of this comes from. People in the US sometimes get problems with hum on DC powered Project turntables and the mains will be the cause of this and the way it is delivered not really something the Project engineers considered as it's not a problem they have. The rule supposedly is that there is a lower noise floor with a belt drive as the rubber belt isolates the motor from the spinning bit and therefore the stylus, and in theory this is completely true but the truth is if the main bearing is poor it doesn't matter how it's driven. That said as Slinch eluded to with a belt drive table you are not spending a lot of money on expensive high torque motors and control electronics so can invest that money in the mechanical issues that in truth are harder to overcome (friction in the main bearing, friction in the arm bearings, Isolation and correct tracking angle) The truth of the matter is that there is good and bad in both, I own both and my favoured tables are belt but the one I built is direct and I love both. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allenh Posted July 7, 2015 Share Posted July 7, 2015 Also yes a DJ should never use a belt drive as the start up speed and torque are useless in comparison to a direct drive but for hifi it isn't an issue so you can use either depending on preference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raye Posted July 7, 2015 Share Posted July 7, 2015 Thanks guys, appreciated. The tables I'm testing tomorrow are: Teac TN300 PRO-JECT Carbon Esprit and the Pioneer PLX1000. I only added the Pioneer in as it's the closest model Richer stock to the Stanton 92/150. The only thing I'm concerned about is the AT95E cart in the Teac (which I would replace with a Shure 97xe, which the unit can just about take). Hopefully the cart won't put me off the table completely tomorrow. Thoughts on the above models? Bear in mind that this is for an entry level user, who expects at least the level of clarity and punch as was in the video posted earlier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allenh Posted July 7, 2015 Share Posted July 7, 2015 If Richers are doing their job properly all of them should beat what you heard on that video but I'm more interested in your thoughts on them all. BTW there's nothing fundamentally wrong with the AT95E Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raye Posted July 7, 2015 Share Posted July 7, 2015 I haven't heard it in 'real life', but I have heard it on multiple tables compared with several other carts, and it definitely sounds quite flat to my ears in comparison. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kannibal Posted July 7, 2015 Share Posted July 7, 2015 I haven't heard it in 'real life', but I have heard it on multiple tables compared with several other carts, and it definitely sounds quite flat to my ears in comparison. I'm not really convinced. Convince me. Tardcore 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raye Posted July 7, 2015 Share Posted July 7, 2015 Why, are you thinking of buying one? Nice try at sarcasm ... and by 'nice' I mean 'moronic'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tardcore Posted July 7, 2015 Share Posted July 7, 2015 Nice try at sarcasm ... and by 'nice' I mean 'moronic'. ZING! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kannibal Posted July 7, 2015 Share Posted July 7, 2015 Why, are you thinking of buying one? Nice try at sarcasm ... and by 'nice' I mean 'moronic'. Maybe if I posted a YouTube video, you'll be able to convince me, because so far, I'm not convinced. Tardcore 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raye Posted July 7, 2015 Share Posted July 7, 2015 This is why I avoid Internet forums... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arem Posted July 7, 2015 Share Posted July 7, 2015 Just a few thoughts for you Raye: - Do you have a table now? A big part of the Belt/Direct thing comes down to habit IMO. If you are coming at this from the side of someone who has DJ'd (as I did) you might find that the belt drive experience is a bit frustrating. Waiting for the table to get up to speed, slow down, possibly remove the platter to switch from 33 to 45, all that is eliminated with a good Direct Drive like a 1200. If you haven't gotten habituated to those things you will may not be bothered by the difference though. - There is a lot of bias against Stanton because they made a lot of cheap crap. I've also used some of their higher end tables and they are OK, but if you are looking at a DJ style table they don't have the same feel as a Technics which for better or worse is the gold standard for DJ's. Also, if you ever have to fix something on it parts might be hard to find because they are relatively scarce, whereas Technics parts are going to be around and available anywhere you go. Full disclosure, my turntable is a Tech 1210 that has been modded with upgraded tonearm wiring and removable RCA cables. I bought it new in the late 90's and it has never once given me a problem. - That Pioneer is getting a lot of solid reviews from people on other forums and in Sterophile magazine here in the US. If you are dead set on a brand new DJ style table it's probably your best bet, but fro that kind of money I'd still consider a clean used Technics over the Pioneer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raye Posted July 7, 2015 Share Posted July 7, 2015 Thanks arem - it's nice to get someone's perspective from the 'other side', as it were. I've never DJ'd, and would just be using the table for casual listening, but I want to get the best sound quality I can with the budget I'm working with. The only thing I'm short on is time, so the more frustration free I can make this set up the better. Maybe that's why the DJ style tables are slightly more appealing ... the thought of having to lift up the platter to change speed isn't that endearing an option for me. That said, apparently the Teac doesn't suffer from this, so I guess we'll see what it sounds like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tardcore Posted July 7, 2015 Share Posted July 7, 2015 Maybe if I posted a YouTube video, you'll be able to convince me, because so far, I'm not convinced. This is why I avoid Internet forums... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raye Posted July 7, 2015 Share Posted July 7, 2015 Is that what you thought I was doing? I guess they don't call you 'Tardcore' for nothing. Nice meme by the way. What are you, twelve? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tardcore Posted July 7, 2015 Share Posted July 7, 2015 Is that what you thought I was doing? I guess they don't call you 'Tardcore' for nothing. Nice meme by the way. What are you, twelve? Nice insult, what are you....eleven? Eliminator Jr. and kidamnesiac 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kannibal Posted July 7, 2015 Share Posted July 7, 2015 This is why I avoid Internet forums... Really? Convince me you're not a pompous ass. Based on your posts, you really come across like one. So c'mon, convince me. Do you need that YouTube video? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajxd Posted July 8, 2015 Share Posted July 8, 2015 Nice insult, what are you....eleven? I laughed way too hard at this. kidamnesiac 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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