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Vegetarian / Vegan Foods Thread

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One more thing -- I posted this in the thread about weightlifting:

http://josepharcita.blogspot.com/2011/03/guide-to-ketosis.html

He makes an interesting point in arguing for a no-carb diet. I can't really dispute the point but might be interesting point for discussion:

Risk of Heart Disease

But even if saturated fat doesn't adversely affect cholesterol, it's still really associated with getting a heart attack though right? I mean arterycloggingsaturatedfat is almost one word it's been drilled into us so often.

Well, again the science just doesn't back this up. If you look at observational studies you'll find some studies showing that people who go heavy on the butter and bacon tend to die of more heart attacks. But the problem with these kinds of studies is that you cannot infer a causal relationship from an retrospective observational study because the 'experiment' has been tainted.

An example: Lets pretend 20 years ago we decide that people that wear more yellow clothes have less heart disease. All the health-conscious people listen to their doctors and start wearing yellow shirts, along with doing thousands of other things that health-conscious people tend to do either unconsciously or consciously (exercise, no smoking, less fast food) that can't be fully accounted for by mathematically controlling the statistics. Lo and behold a few decades later it's as clear as day that people who wear yellow clothes have less heart attacks!

If you think the above example is completely silly then think how silly it is that even the observational evidence from the last few decades is not consistent the theory. The totality of the studies of this nature don't even support an association with an increase in heart disease even though we've been told to lay off the cream and butter for decades now.

The best version of an observational study is a prospective cohort study, this is where rather than asking people to remember what they were eating ten years ago, you ask them what they eat now and at regular intervals and follow their progress for a number of years. Although still far from perfect, these kind of studies minimise 'recall' bias or the bias we all have in remembering what we eat.

There have been 25 prospective studies done examining the relationship between heart-disease and saturated fat and only four of them managed to find any relationship whatsoever. If there was a real danger from eating saturated fat, we would see a far more consistent relationship, especially considering how healthy people in general tend to avoid it based on public health recommendations.

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I like being big and strong (work very hard at it), no protein in veggies, and soy turns into estrogen in the body (and I don't want bitch titties). So I eat meat.

You have no idea what you're talking about. Vegetables do contain protein as do lentils, beans, and various grains. The soy argument is incredibly silly, what do you think is fed to the animals you eat? Aside from the fact that you can be completely vegan without soy if one chooses to do so.

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Considering going vegetarian. Question for you all who have made the switch to go meatless. Do you feel a difference?

I feel way different. I don't feel sick after I eat, unless I over eat. I have more energy, I shit regularly and normally. I almost never get sick. I would get sick constantly even when I was vegetarian. After going vegan I've been sick three times in a year. Two of those times have been recently while I've been working two jobs, not getting enough sleep, and eating poorly. Eat right and exercise and you'll feel amazing. It sounds silly to say but I feel lighter. My food doesn't sit in my gut and make me feel gross. Before going veg I was 210lbs and I'm just over 5'7". Now I sit at a comfortable 175-180lbs. I have the energy to ride my bike. My sex life is better, my skin is better. I'm not a typical skin and bones vision of what a vegan is and I'm in the process of getting even healthier with hard work outs at the gym. Going vegan has been anything but negative for me and I recommend it to everyone.

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I can't really comment on the whole body building as a vegan/vegetarian, but it is a myth that it's really hard to get a the normal amount of protein you need to be healthy.

You make it sound so easy. You should try it yourself and see how hard it is. Listen to Lebowski, dude knowns his shit. It was extremely difficult for me to intake the proper amount of protein with a veg-oriented diet on top of working out and working in general. I often felt completely drained at the end of the day and was not progressing as much as I should have been (with muscle gain). I'm not eating McNuggets and KFC and shit, simply some grilled chicken on a salad here and there. It hasn't become a main meal item for me and I have no desire to consume beef or pork.

Still, without implying that I need to justify my means, my knowledge of a vegetarian lifestyle is still well intact. My wife and two daughters are vegetarian and although I haven't made it apparent to my children that I am now consuming fish and poultry I think they will understand why I am because they see how serious I am taking this muscle-gain. I would have no issue at all with either of my children or my wife wanting to add, or completely prohibiting, all animal products from their diets.

ok guys persuade me. And I'm not playing devil's advocate, I've been thinking about trying to be vegetarian for a bit now. mainly to eat healthy but also because maltreated animals really bugs me.

what's the argument against animal-friendly farms though? I pay $9 for a dozen eggs locally from this dude who has a badass chicken farm. If I'm ok forking out the dough what's the harm in that?

The obvious argument has always been that those by-products are not made for you, a human. Slaughter House is a very in-depth book that specifically details exactly what happens in many farms, although I can't recall if it gets very detailed about "humane" farms (http://amzn.to/XxmFo1). Still, the argument is that animal by-products are created for their young and that you wouldn't buy your dog a human breast-milk cheese pizza and whatnot (or maybe you would, I don't know what you're in to).

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I was vegetarian for 10 years, recently began eating chicken and fish to help build muscle. I imagine I will eventually go back to a veggie diet but I want to improve my strength and size. I gave up meat for myself and went back to it for myself.

This man would like a word with you:

whc_daniel_bryan_by_windows8osx-d4jmgpp_original.jpg

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You have no idea what you're talking about. Vegetables do contain protein as do lentils, beans, and various grains. The soy argument is incredibly silly, what do you think is fed to the animals you eat? Aside from the fact that you can be completely vegan without soy if one chooses to do so.

You make my points for me. I said you can have a healthy body on a vegan diet. But you pretty much CANNOT put on size without a calorie surplus. And any diet that makes you go from 210 to 180 is the opposite of a calorie surplus. I'm making assumptions about you, but from the info posted, you probably had a decent amount of muscle underneath some flab, the vegan diet and a calorie deficit allowed you to cut the flab, and now you look toned and are keeping the muscle mass by eating protein rich vegan foods. Totally cool and the right move for you. I eat much more veggies when trying to cut pounds too. There are plenty of other people in a different boat (weighing in at 150 pounds) who will never be able to put on size on a vegan diet.

I never claimed to exhaustively list vegan foods with protein in them. Correct, beans and some grains have protein in them. But I happen to have a bag of lentils at home. The entire bag (I want to say this would be at least 10 bowls) has about 100 grams of protein. Same as 2 cans of tuna fish. It's definitely possible to get a maintenance level of protein out of a vegan diet (obviously, since vegans don't die of malnutrition and some are pretty fit/ripped). It's pretty hard to impossible (given numbers like what I posted above and echoing Rambo's comments) to get a protein surplus, which is a necessity sometimes depending on your goals.

And the soy - estrogen thing is real:

http://www.livestron...rogen-problems/

Look at the references -- Cornell and various state universities. How destructive soy estrogens are to male testosterone levels is something that is debated. My viewpoint -- I sure as hell am not going to eat a food that is linked by any science to decreased testosterone. It is already hard enough to be strong. I don't need my diet working against me.

IF I were to go vegan, though, I would probably take a soy protein supplement. It would be choosing the lesser of two evils between having enough protein and soy estrogens. And soy protein is the best form of veggie protein (which is why they sell it at the grocery store and not tubs of bean or grain protein).

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So you can definitely be "healthy" on a veggie / vegan diet. You can be "fit", maybe even "ripped". But you are never going to get "big". I'm sure for the majority of vegans, this is 1/1000th as important as the moral aspect of it. Not for everyone though.

this is basically what i was trying to say rambo, like i said, i have no idea how hard it would be personally to try to "get big" on a vegan diet. i was just trying to say that for a normal person not trying to do that that it's not as hard as they may think to get the recommended amount of protein.

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You make my points for me. I said you can have a healthy body on a vegan diet. But you pretty much CANNOT put on size without a calorie surplus. And any diet that makes you go from 210 to 180 is the opposite of a calorie surplus. I'm making assumptions about you, but from the info posted, you probably had a decent amount of muscle underneath some flab, the vegan diet and a calorie deficit allowed you to cut the flab, and now you look toned and are keeping the muscle mass by eating protein rich vegan foods. Totally cool and the right move for you. I eat much more veggies when trying to cut pounds too. There are plenty of other people in a different boat (weighing in at 150 pounds) who will never be able to put on size on a vegan diet.

I never claimed to exhaustively list vegan foods with protein in them. Correct, beans and some grains have protein in them. But I happen to have a bag of lentils at home. The entire bag (I want to say this would be at least 10 bowls) has about 100 grams of protein. Same as 2 cans of tuna fish. It's definitely possible to get a maintenance level of protein out of a vegan diet (obviously, since vegans don't die of malnutrition and some are pretty fit/ripped). It's pretty hard to impossible (given numbers like what I posted above and echoing Rambo's comments) to get a protein surplus, which is a necessity sometimes depending on your goals.

And the soy - estrogen thing is real:

http://www.livestron...rogen-problems/

Look at the references -- Cornell and various state universities. How destructive soy estrogens are to male testosterone levels is something that is debated. My viewpoint -- I sure as hell am not going to eat a food that is linked by any science to decreased testosterone. It is already hard enough to be strong. I don't need my diet working against me.

IF I were to go vegan, though, I would probably take a soy protein supplement. It would be choosing the lesser of two evils between having enough protein and soy estrogens. And soy protein is the best form of veggie protein (which is why they sell it at the grocery store and not tubs of bean or grain protein).

You said none of that in your post. Your post can be summed up in the following points, I'm big and strong and I work hard at it, vegetables have 0 protein, soy has estrogen in it therefor it=woman=tits.

Now I was actually a very unfit 210 with little strength. I'm stocky and have large legs and ass, just the way I'm built. Helps biking my ass up the hills that Seattle is known for. I'm 180 with more muscle and less flab for sure and my overall conditioning has gone way up but I'm not "there" yet in a body building sense. That's the goal I'm going to be working towards. I know plenty of people who are 150 and regardless of the dietary preferences won't ever get big. Mostly because they won't put the work in it. Like you said, it's a lot of work and a calorie surplus is absolutely needed. You act as though it's literally impossible to get a surplus on a vegan diet. You make the point that your two cans of tuna has the same amount of protein as your lentils. Vegans, as far as I've ever seen, get their totally daily needed amounts over the course of a day. Not in large chunks like most meat eaters.

I didn't say you were wrong about estrogen in soy, I said your argument was silly. The vast majority of animals are fed a diet of almost entirely soy, corn, and antibiotics. How much of that estrogen is being absorbed into that meat do you think? Studies have already shown that the amount of antibiotics that animals consume are starting to have an adverse reaction to the humans who consume it. Not only that but your making the claim that soy is the only way to get protein efficiently. Like anything else you shouldn't be getting your entire needed amount of protein, minerals, vitamins, whatever, from one source. That's simple isn't healthy.

You CANNOT put on size with a vegan diet? These people would say you're wrong

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/04/jim-morris-bodybuilder-vegan_n_1938764.html

http://www.thediscerningbrute.com/author/ed-bauer-cpt/

http://www.veganstrength.org/

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"This guys big and also a vegan" doesn't change my views. Everyone of those examples is suspect for roids, and the first one openly admits to them. Then there are questions of where they were at before becoming vegan (how much of that muscle is actually built from animal products). It is significantly easier to maintain body composition on a vegan diet than to create new muscle tissue. Not saying those articles are all bunk. Just that there is insufficient evidence to attribute (natural) size to a vegan diet. I'm not even sure I'd call the second guy "big", just ripped. Maybe 6% body fat, 160 pounds?

Another point I have been getting at is that all protein is not created equally. The reason I focus on soy is that it is the closest one to having the amino acid quality of animal protein. Nuts, beans, etc all lack essential amino acids (which is obvious from the genetic differences between a peanut and a human). Is it possible to get all the amino acids necessary by combining the pieces different sources? Yes. It is just significantly harder. I take 1 whey shake post workout and can feel confident I have everything my body needs to build new tissue. And as I said, if I am going to spend an hour a day working out, I am going to make sure my body is well fed to take advantage of it. Not risking missing a critical amino acid.

Yeah, antibiotics in meat are a negative. No argument. As for why a soy fed cow doesn't increase estrogen in humans but a soybean does? I dunno. Not a nutritionist or biochemist. But I've never heard anything about eating male animals leading to higher testosterone or female animals leading to higher estrogen (sex being a much larger determinant in hormone levels than diet). Unless you show me some evidence along these lines, my answer is "it just doesn't".

Clearly, neither one of us is going to convince the other to jump sides. Staying positive (and also because this would be valuable to you since you say you work out hard at the gym), you want to describe what a vegan diet would look like for me on a bulk phase? I'm 190, so ballpark numbers each day would be 3000 calories, 100 grams of protein, a full blend of amino acids without soy (sorry to beat a dead horse but I won't eat it). At least a 2 day cycle with different foods each day (because eating the same meals everyday would be too monotonous). I just wonder if it would be nothing but beans and nuts to meet my macros.

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vegan for four years now, started when I was 16, 21 now.

also straight edge if it matters.

i cut everything out cold tofurkey, straight from a vicious carnivore. best decision and it was so easy too. As someone said before, started as a joke, then for animal cruelty, but now I don't even have an interest in eating anything.

If I had to eat something, it'd definitely be meat first

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I have been vegetarian for 2 1/2 years now, prior to that i was a Pescetarian for over a year.

For me, it is a purely moral decision. The idea of meat physically disgusts me, and for that i am a significantly healthier.

A combination of research into the meat industry as well as a dietary shift to eating healthier is what informed my decision to be a vegetarian.

I think in the near future being vegan will be on the cards, just difficult due to still l living at home (poor excuse i know)

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I've been a dedicated carnivore for 27 years. This time of year is awesome, ya can't beat Venison. I really need to get off my lazy ass and get back in the woods and hunt.

I commend you guys that have made the switch. My sister did about 12 years ago. No way I could, and I don't want to, I love meat way to much. :D

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I don't think I've had any issues of weight gain/loss or even mass when coming to my diet of veggies. On campus I eat veg at home mainly vegan.

Weight loss on a vegan diet isn't a question. It's the ideal diet for that most likely, which is why there are so many success stories of "I was flabby and overweight, went vegan, now I am fit with tons of energy".

What does your diet look like for weight gain, though? The other dude never answered me. In rereading the conversation, he also misunderstood me. I don't think that it is impossible to gain weight when on a vegan diet. I think it is impossible to gain weight on a calorie deficit. I question how feasible it is to have a calorie surplus on a vegan diet, both in terms of quantity of food eaten and price.

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