TFP Posted February 27, 2015 Share Posted February 27, 2015 It's up to you if you want to view getting your money back as "shitty". It's not a universal opinion though or one backed by PayPal, Discogs, or any business philosophy outside of the 'be cool, bro' code. You're a customer and the onus is on the seller to make sure the package reaches you safely and incur any costs or risks associated with that. They are making a profit from transactions and any long term seller will have incurred costs that eat from those profits but it's part of doing business. If a seller doesn't want to wade into this issue, it's their option to choose Insurance to protect themselves. Insurance isn't intended to protect the buyer. Unfortunately, the seller can't make $8 from the transaction and then also want the risk-free perks that one experiences as a buyer when they shop. That isn't ideal for sellers but it's how shipping policies and culpability is set up by the moderating marketplaces. If following the protocols and guidelines is "shitty" then maybe the best option is to avoid Discogs and PayPal and do transactions via Craig's List and cash so that everyone can be cool and nice about settling these things. I agree with this. ^^ If the seller is offering an expensive record and even goes further to say "Not responsible for any loss or damage" in his terms, they really should insure the package. Because more often than not PayPal will side with the buyer anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dreamover Posted February 27, 2015 Share Posted February 27, 2015 I agree with this. ^^ If the seller is offering an expensive record and even goes further to say "Not responsible for any loss or damage" in his terms, they really should insure the package. Because more often than not PayPal will side with the buyer anyway. So if a seller says they're not responsible for loss or damage if the BUYER CHOOSES to not pay for more expensive shipping, the seller has to be responsible? That doesn't make sense. If the buyer isn't an idiot, they shouldn't agree to those terms if they literally don't agree with those terms. That being said, if it's an expensive item, I don't give the buyer an option not to have insurance added. And as a buyer, I'll refuse to pay over a certain amount unless the seller insures it (on my dime of course). Everyone wants to save a few bucks and then bitch and whine when they the record doesn't show up because USPS is not at all reliable. slushy, deletedunknown and dethrock 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
just a normal guy kevin Posted February 27, 2015 Share Posted February 27, 2015 The buyer isn't obligated to correct or police a seller who puts up ill advised terms. When a situation arises, what stands is PayPal and Discogs policy, no matter what a seller writes or what a buyer does in relation to non-enforceable terms. ChasHawk 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackholexxxx Posted February 27, 2015 Share Posted February 27, 2015 From time to time you will have to deal with lost and damaged items in transit. Please remember that it is your responsibility to make sure items arrive and are not damaged, even when a buyer has not paid for registered/insured shipping. To protect yourself as a seller, it might be helpful to provide this as standard practice. See http://www.discogs.com/help/doc/mp-financial-responsibility PayPal will give you yout money back. This issue comes up all the time in the discogs forum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TFP Posted February 27, 2015 Share Posted February 27, 2015 In this age of PayPal, you as a seller have to take EVERY possible precaution. Because PayPal is ALWAYS for the buyer.It's just how it is. The burden is on the seller. ChasHawk 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrrom92 Posted February 27, 2015 Share Posted February 27, 2015 Weird shit happens sometimes. I had a high value record I sent to Italy travel around the world, tracking and everything, got updated as "address not located", and then basically evaporate. I've had plenty of good experience both sending to and receiving from other countries in the past. I kept in contact with the buyer, and I promised if I heard anything I would let him know. He was super understanding of the situation. We kept in contact on and off, discussed other records / recent happenings, and while it was a sucky situation there was not really much we could do. Lo and behold, something like 10 months later the package shows up on my doorstep covered in all sorts of stickers and notation. I kinda gave up hope by that point so I was pretty surprised. I immediately wrote to the guy and let him know that it was back in my hands, and asked him if there was a specific shipping method he'd like me to use to try again. I don't recall but I think it ended up being shipped the same way, and it ended up in his hands I shit you not, like 4 days later. One incident out of dozens of shipments. It's rare but, you know. Just be understanding about it. The cheapest option sometimes is really a risk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phabletzza Posted February 27, 2015 Share Posted February 27, 2015 I'm actually on the other side of this situation right now - shipped a guy in France a record via USPS First Class International. It's been almost a month with no sign of it. Fortunately First Class International now includes tracking/delivery confirmation. The website shows that the record made it to Paris and was dispatched but there's no confirmation of its arrival. The buyer has 0 feedback and has been riding me for tracking info since about a week after the transaction, so I'm skeptical of his motives. He's now opened a Paypal claim, I've replied with the USPS tracking number showing I shipped it, but we'll see how Paypal decides. I've never had an issue so I didn't even think to ask if he wanted insurance, etc - my discogs store doesn't have standard shipping options, I just quote actual shipping based on the weight of the item. Hopefully Paypal looks favorably on the fact that the tracking info on USPS's website proves that I mailed the record and that if it's lost, it's the French postal service's fault... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slushy Posted February 27, 2015 Share Posted February 27, 2015 If you order something through eBay/Discogs and don't pay the extra for tracking/insurance and the package gets lost, IT'S ON YOU. Everybody knows that sending things through the post is a gamble at the best of times, especially when shipping overseas. If you opt out of the extra coverage, you're the one taking the risk and the seller should not be out of pocket because you wanted to save a couple of bucks. Putting through a paypal claim in these instances is a massive dick move. In saying all that, international postage often takes its sweet time. Sometimes customs will hold things for months on end. I've had packages turn up several months later after detours in Zimbabwe. I've had a package turn up one and a half years later with a note mentioning that the post office located it at one of their sorting facilities. I've also had stuff just completely disappear. Shit happens, it's no big deal! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fitterhappier Posted February 27, 2015 Share Posted February 27, 2015 FWIW, my story I bought a vinyl boxset from a Germany seller on eBay. Seller had great rating and shipped the item immediately. Fast forward to 6 weeks later and the item still hasn't showed up. I pretty much told the seller that item was probably lost in transit and that I'd have to ask for a refund to cover myself. Seller was understanding and refunded me the money. Fast forward another 4 weeks and the item magically appears at my doorstep. Don't know what took so long, since the seller put the address correctly. After checking that item was still in good shape, I gifted the money back to the seller. e: If you order something through eBay/Discogs and don't pay the extra for tracking/insurance and the package gets lost, IT'S ON YOU. I would disagree. Tracking/insurance is to protect the seller, not the buyer. If the seller feels that tracking/insurance is necessary, it should be stated on the listing/shipping information. This is coming from a person who sells and buys on eBay. ChasHawk 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
serious business Posted February 27, 2015 Share Posted February 27, 2015 The nice thing about paypal these days is...you have 180 days to file a complaint/whatever. They've really got you covered. I'd wait it out for a while, were I you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slushy Posted February 27, 2015 Share Posted February 27, 2015 I would disagree. Tracking/insurance is to protect the seller, not the buyer. If the seller feels that tracking/insurance is necessary, it should be stated on the listing/shipping information. This is coming from a person who sells and buys on eBay. Almost all sellers will have multiple shipping options available. It's up to the buyer to decide if the item is worth them paying more to make sure the item gets to them safely/quickly or so they can get their money back if it gets lost/stolen/damaged. If it's a $10 record that they can find a copy of at anytime, then it's probably not worth paying for the extra, and usually the seller will help out in these instances. If it's a higher value item, then it's all on the buyer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
just a normal guy kevin Posted February 27, 2015 Share Posted February 27, 2015 As convenient as it would be to slap a sticker on the package, drop it off at the post office, then wipe your hands and say "I'm done! Rest of its on the USPS and buyer", it's not reality. It's not a dick move for the buyer to get a refund for an item that never made it to them. The profit you make by offering low shipping outweighs the cost of the rare times when a package is lost/damaged and you eat the cost. This idea that you can sell products and have zero risk and zero cost from losses/damages only exists in the minds of individuals who jump into selling and don't understand or agree with the realities of selling. PayPal and Discogs aren't these anti-seller corporations encroaching on your sellers' rights. Seller's pact is to get the item to the customer. End of story. ChasHawk 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psus2h Posted February 27, 2015 Share Posted February 27, 2015 The dudes not going to risk 100% feedback for $50..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freverend Posted February 27, 2015 Share Posted February 27, 2015 I ship all over the world via discogs orders for a year now or so. USA/Canada usually needs not more than 4 to 5 days from Germany. Just wnated to say what was said before: it was your descision to go uninsured. Paypal will not refund you if the seller proofs with your communication- bu i am really sorry for you anyway! Happened to me before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeeKaye Posted February 27, 2015 Share Posted February 27, 2015 Just to chip in, I only sell with tracked postage. Even if the potential buyer complains about the extra cost. It's to protect me and give them some assurance that it will turn up. Hope it all works out for the OP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
themightychew Posted February 27, 2015 Share Posted February 27, 2015 My contribution. I ship a lot from the UK via Discogs and use Royal Mail. The default insurance, worldwide, for loss\damage is up to £20 when you supply the free 'proof of posting' they provide. I stipulate that anything domestic or international over £20 has to be sent recorded, which gives basic tracking and full value insurance with a signature on delivery. International customers pay £5 for this on top of actual cost shipping. I'm fully aware that buyers have the right to get a full refund from Paypal if the item doesn't arrive. I accept this, it makes good 'no quibble' practice for me and my customers and the above rules cover every eventuality If I buy from an international seller and they put the standard, "I accept no responsibility for items lost in the post" warning, I pay it no heed; Paypal will protect my purchase. In the OP's case, if the seller posted the record without ensuring both parties were fully covered for loss then that's a fool choice. You could argue that the sellers attract more sales by offering cheaper shipping, but that's entirely at their risk in this age of Paypal. The customer's always right, and so Derek™ should file the Paypal claim. Cheers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nico Posted February 27, 2015 Share Posted February 27, 2015 Mail has been rather slow these last few weeks, very irritating indeed. I once had a package shipped from California to the Netherlands, being detoured trough Argentina, Chili, Spain, Germany before it arrived here. It took close to 4 months. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wynams Posted February 27, 2015 Share Posted February 27, 2015 @OP sorry if my earlier comment seemed a bit judgy, I re-read it and it def had a tone. As someone who used to sell online as an exclusive source of income, I would just like to add that it really is a hardship on sole proprietors (who have made no errors in the transaction) to both: be out the merchandise AND 100% refund your money. I used to sell video games on half.com, but one month they had some sort of security breach and all of my orders I shipped out were charged back ... I was out the merch and $500 in sales, and as a result, I was forced to return to the 9-5. Not quite the same thing from your PoV, but you get the gist. I have no doubt that you could successfully get a PayPal refund, but hopefully your package shows up soon rendering this dilemma moot! Cheers! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
213041284s Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 I'm currently having a Discogs dilemma myself. Not like OP's case, but I thought I'd post it in here instead of making a new thread So about a little over a month ago I purchased a record off this dude. It came out to around $35 bucks, which isn't too expensive, but it's not cheap either. He had great feedback so I wasn't worried. About a week & 1/2 passes with no shipping info so I shoot him a message asking if he sent it out. I wasn't impatient or anything, just curious. He sends a super nice reply and states that he shipped it out the week before, however he didn't include a tracking #. I just figured he forgot to mention it, so I sent him another message and got nothing. A while later he comes out of the blue saying he called the post office to track the package and that it had been delayed by the snow in his area (I have no idea where he is located but I wanted to believe that's the case). So again, I asked him which carrier he used and if I could have the tracking info. He ignores that for a few more days and then comes to me apologizing saying the record was sent back to him, but that he upgraded my shipping to priority. Only then did he finally disclose that he used USPS, so I make a small comment about how the weather's been and that I understand stuff gets delayed sometimes, then asked if he could give me the info. He ignores my question and only responds to the first comment. I just asked him again, though I'm not expecting anything but another excuse. To his credit, he's been *mostly* doing a decent job at keeping me updated, but for the life of me I can't understand why he's being so shady about details such as his location, the carrier he used or the tracking #. I understand that delays happen, and I have no problem waiting a month or more for a record as long as I have information that lets me know that it is actually on its way. According to his story, the record should have arrived today via priority. It has not, so I'm gonna wait until tomorrow or thursday to just ask for a refund. Is this justified? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
just a normal guy kevin Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 Does his PayPal invoice have an address? At the very least, his Discogs profile should show a general area. Whether he is truly the benefactor of bad luck or not, you might request a refund if the item still doesn't arrive by Monday and/or he gives another excuse about it being returned to sender. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
213041284s Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 Does his PayPal invoice have an address? At the very least, his Discogs profile should show a general area. Whether he is truly the benefactor of bad luck or not, you might request a refund if the item still doesn't arrive by Monday and/or he gives another excuse about it being returned to sender. No info on him whatsoever. I just double checked my PayPal activity and it only gives me his name and email. There's nothing on his Discogs account that gives away any sort of location either. He seems to have made quite a few comments and contributions on the site and has a 100% buyer and seller feedback, so I'm pretty confused by this whole thing. I guess all I can do is hope for a reply or just wait until Monday as you suggested. EDIT: welp so googling his email address led me to his old band's facebook page where it's listed, and it turns out he's located right here in Jersey. wow Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
just a normal guy kevin Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 If you're not strapped for time, I'd make note of those detective clues but I wouldn't make any big assumptions unless you have definitive proof he is still in NJ or yanking your chain. People move all over the world, sometimes very quickly. If he has avoided the question of his location as often as you have described, I would open a SR request with Discogs and just explain your situation and concerns. Remember not to make allegations but just describe what's happened and ask for their input on how to proceed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
213041284s Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 If you're not strapped for time, I'd make note of those detective clues but I wouldn't make any big assumptions unless you have definitive proof he is still in NJ or yanking your chain. People move all over the world, sometimes very quickly. If he has avoided the question of his location as often as you have described, I would open a SR request with Discogs and just explain your situation and concerns. Remember not to make allegations but just describe what's happened and ask for their input on how to proceed. He's def still in NJ. In fact, I got my tracking # this morning which finally confirmed that. Looks like he just shipped it out too, meaning he wasn't telling the truth about having sent it out before. Glad that I have some solid info at last, but I'm still unsure of this whole situation. I don't even know if I can take his word on the condition of the record anymore, but I guess I'll have to wait and see. As I said before, he's been really nice in his replies judging by his past feedback/contributions, seems like a decent guy and a passionate collector who wouldn't be out to screw anybody over. Even if it does arrive in great condition, I don't know if this transaction calls for no feedback, neutral feedback, or negative feedback. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
just a normal guy kevin Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 After you receive the record, if the LP is fine and as described, I would message him first and ask why he was unable to provide specific information about the shipping details for the first attempt and why he told you that he had shipped the item before he actually did on the second attempt. If you let him know that you were a bit dissatisfied with the communication and want to get his side before you leave feedback, you can then leave appropriate feedback without feeling like you're "blindsiding" him unfairly. If he replies, you might get a clearer picture of the situation which could make your feedback more accurate. If he never replies, then you shouldn't feel bad about mentioning his lacking communication. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChasHawk Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 FWIW, it seems that intl packages are moving slowly right now. I've been waiting for sportscards that I won from a Canada seller for over a month now. Every item I've ever gotten from Canada seems to get snagged in customs for weeks. I won't claim to know discogs policy, but it is stated explicitly in ebay's terms that insurance is intended to protect the seller, not the buyer. The onus is on the seller to make sure a purchased item arrives. If you purchase something from walmart.com and it doesn't arrive, do you just write it off as a loss, or do you call customer service for a refund/replacement? Anyone selling anything assumes the same risk/responsibility. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.