Sketchiness from Virgil Dickerson / Suburban Home?

[bearchuck]

Just to add some levity to the Virgil thing, I always liked the guy on a personal level and he was very helpful with advice / info when we first started Tiny Engines. And at the end of his run, VC owed us a little bit of distro money (seriously, not much at all) and we received it with no problems.

Having said that, it's painfully apparent that Virgil left a lot of people high and dry. We're not discussing a handful of disgruntled mail order customers either; no, we're talking about bands, labels, distributors, record stores, members of the cooperative ... the list goes on, and it's a list that would shame most people into changing their identity and disappearing for at least ten years. To echo Ryan's post, I find it absolutely mind boggling - whatever his involvement - that he would ever start a new label without completely rectifying the giant shit storm he created with is last venture.

There's no two ways about it - Virgil's name has been dragged through the mud because it 100 percent deserves to be. Does he feel bad about everything? Yeah, I'm sure that owing people a ton of money, losing your wife and oh-so-important scene cred is pretty devastating, but it's not like he was an unwilling participant thrust into this life of despair. I'm all for compassion and understanding, but at a certain point I reach a limit. Virgil may have been apologetic when it all went down, but if I were a betting man, I'd put my money on the fact that he hasn't done much in the past year or two in the way of actually making things right with everyone.

And if I'm wrong and he's started to pay off his debts, well good. I'm glad he's turned over a new leaf and he's more than welcome to give me a ring and tell me to shut my damn mouth because I'm an idiot. I can take it.

One other quick thing - Scott is right in that we really have no idea how many people are owed money. Maybe it's not the astronomical number we all make it out to be. Having said that, Virgil's transgressions go well beyond finances, especially if you're talking about all the bands and other folks that put their trust in his judgement. This thing is about much, much more than just money.

[yocaseycasey]

I'm reading this every ten minutes, because I've never seen so many people up in arms! I'm waiting for users to start resorting to name-calling (ie: butthole, butthead, stupid-face, etc.)

[scottheisel]

It doesn't appear that Greater Than Collective is his full-time project. A quick glance at his Facebook says he works for Illegal Pete's (which is a restaurant in Denver). I won't argue with you on his intentions to start a new label being misguided, because it sure seems that way to pretty much anyone with a basic knowledge of what went down. But if a band wants to work with him, that's their choice.

Also, I'm bothered by people frequently saying, "he owes all this money to all these people!" when in actuality, no one knows what his financials are like right now. People on this board talk about Virgil as if they have access to his bank account or something. It's weird and uncomfortable for me to see people assuming what someone else's financial situation is and passing it off as cold, hard fact. Again, I don't doubt that he still owes people money, but for people to talk as if they know exactly how much and to whom is kind of fucked.

So tell us. I don't think anyone is asking to see his credit card bill and paystub, but create a list of people that are owed money and remove them as they are paid off. It's not about rectifying the situation immediately (I don't doubt that he would if he could), but show incremental improvement of the situation (or admit that he walked away and stuck a lot of people with his debts, and get out of the scene).

But for the majority of us in the "peanut gallery," why are we deserving of his financial information? Even those who he owes money to aren't entitled to see how much money he owes to someone else. You don't think it's weird to ask someone you don't know personally and have never done business with to provide a detailed list of to whom he owes money—and make that list public? What gives any of us the right to ask that?

[scottheisel]

Also, according to this article, Greater Than Collective is not just Virgil's label, nor was it named by him:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/07/27/illegal-petes-launches-gr_n_911336.html

[themean]

But for the majority of us in the "peanut gallery," why are we deserving of his financial information? Even those who he owes money to aren't entitled to see how much money he owes to someone else. You don't think it's weird to ask someone you don't know personally and have never done business with to provide a detailed list of to whom he owes money�and make that list public? What gives any of us the right to ask that?

The indie music scene exists because of trust. That's why.

[thebiglebowski]

So tell us. I don't think anyone is asking to see his credit card bill and paystub, but create a list of people that are owed money and remove them as they are paid off. It's not about rectifying the situation immediately (I don't doubt that he would if he could), but show incremental improvement of the situation (or admit that he walked away and stuck a lot of people with his debts, and get out of the scene).

But for the majority of us in the "peanut gallery," why are we deserving of his financial information? Even those who he owes money to aren't entitled to see how much money he owes to someone else. You don't think it's weird to ask someone you don't know personally and have never done business with to provide a detailed list of to whom he owes money—and make that list public? What gives any of us the right to ask that?

I'm not requesting anything. I am not owed anything outside of the CoOp (which I don't really care that much about. The value of the records I got was more than $60, so I have no personal ill will towards Virgil). I never said give a detailed list of who he owes money to and how much. Just saying if he wants to save face, admit that some debt is owed to a list of people (the amount being between Virgil and the person), then advertise as those debts are paid off (ie, "The debt from SH to Tiny Engines is now resolved").

The point I am making is that with limited information and small steps forward in paying back whats owed, the guy could do a giant positive to his reputation. Revealing (and possibly doing) nothing leads to threads like this, and deservedly.

[appletree]

No one should have to ask for it, nor are entitled to it. Although I would expect that saying to ring true, "actions speak louder than words". If he were to owe people money why not come out of the woodwork and in hiding and say he is making an effort to pay everyone back. Be honest and say I am trying to support myself right now but all extra money and finances are going to those whom I owe money. Of course no one knows if he is or is not acting on these principles, but if he was would he not be open to letting everyone know he was making a conscious effort to making things right?

By being silent and not open about anything it only leads people to speculate and just expect that he is just embarrassed about it or does not want to face it. I know for damn sure I would not be pouring a single dime into another company, website, distro, label, etc etc if I owed a single person any money. It just is not right, I mean you would not loan your buddy money and when expecting him to pay you back he keeps telling you just a little more time I have been really feeling really hot at the poker tables...

Idk I am bad at putting my opinion forward but I do agree that a lot of good arguments were made. Once again though saying and being apologetic is very very different from actually making the changes and sacrifices required to correcting actions of the past. Everyone makes mistakes, everyone fucks up, everyone makes poor decisions, it is how you pick yourself up, fix the mistakes, and ensure the same decisions are not made again. Once again a caveat: I have no idea if he is or isn't doing any of this, or even making an attempt to, but by not being open about it who is to know what the hell is going on.

[scottheisel]

But for the majority of us in the "peanut gallery," why are we deserving of his financial information? Even those who he owes money to aren't entitled to see how much money he owes to someone else. You don't think it's weird to ask someone you don't know personally and have never done business with to provide a detailed list of to whom he owes money�and make that list public? What gives any of us the right to ask that?

The indie music scene exists because of trust. That's why.

So you're saying implied trust = mandatory disclosure of sensitive information. Would that hold up in a court of law, Scott?

[cactusbot]

Just in case anyone was wondering Virgil still owes me money. Scumbag in my book.

[lonesomexloveus]

JS gifs always bring life to the party!

edit: i always liked the table moving one. lol.

[selfreliable]

You all are missing the point. If it wasnt for Scott we never would have got Norma Jean records!

Also, if I beat up females in public, will people go wild over gifs of me too?

[themean]

The indie music scene exists because of trust. That's why.

So you're saying implied trust = mandatory disclosure of sensitive information. Would that hold up in a court of law, Scott?

Last I checked this was not a court of law. If people sued him for what he owed, then it would all be public.

However, the independent music exists on trust and integrity. It's been that way for years. There is a long list of people who preyed on this, and left labels, bands and music lovers high and dry. Virgil is just another name on the list.

If he wanted to be above board, he could easily state what is owed and his plan to pay it back. Instead he disappears, inconsistently responds to requests for $$$, and moves on to the next business. It's a common pattern for those of us who have seen it happen over and over again.

[thebiglebowski]

You all are missing the point. If it wasnt for Scott we never would have got Norma Jean records!

Also, if I beat up females in public, will people go wild over gifs of me too?

Most grossly false statement of the thread. No male JS cast member has ever hit a woman. The guys have fought, and the girls have fought. Snooki getting punched in the first season by a man was by a bar random.

[bearchuck]

My personal opinion is that it doesn't matter if Virgil started the new label or not. You fuck up as much as he did, you stay out of the scene for a good long while. That's just me though.

And of course Virgil is not obligated to give anyone financial info, but you gotta understand how it's all gone down. You've got homeboy apologizing and promising to pay people back ... followed by a long period of silence, which is occasionally interrupted by plenty of voices stating that Virgil fucked them over and nothing has been done to fix it. If Virgil continues to stay silent, that's his decision, but at the same time I think it's perfectly alright for everyone else to discuss how they've been wronged until the situation has been corrected. People are one hundred percent allowed to do that, and yes - if there are any Virgil apologists or people that have been paid back any money owed, please speak up. I'm sure we'd all love to hear from you as well!

[deafmx]

maybe if Virgil used his college degree and went back to his molecular biology lab, debts would be sooner repaid.

why don't we do this? i am not owed money, i don't feel cheated by VC. i think it was kind of a bullshit move to remove himself from the VC moniker, the site and the message board along with the co-op label.

if Virgil owes you money, and you feel justified telling people just how much, make a fucking post on the board. say who you are, what you are owed, and just how much of that amount you've been repaid in the last 2 years. that way you can all personally "drag his name through the mud" with real numbers and public record. it's not like anyone on here hasn't mentioned they've been cheated out of distro money or whatever other money they had coming from VC.

so make your posts, then Scott can feel better about everything happening in this thread. no apologies needed.

[GradedOnACurve]

wow

[deafmx]

My personal opinion is that it doesn't matter if Virgil started the new label or not. You fuck up as much as he did, you stay out of the scene for a good long while.

the sad part is, why does he need any other label involvement? he has Suburban Home still, are they dead in the water? i don't see any new releases listed in the releases section. i thought all the UTI records were still being released under that name.

stop biting off more than you can chew when you're broke, a lesson all record buyers (including myself) or record labels should adhere to.

[agaetisbyrjun]

You all are missing the point. If it wasnt for Scott we never would have got Norma Jean records!

Also, if I beat up females in public, will people go wild over gifs of me too?

You know it

[thebiglebowski]

My personal opinion, the people that should absolutely have been paid back already were the people who spent $1k on the SH lifetime subscription. It's hard to say that one wrong is worse than another, but distros owed money is business. Maybe the companies can even write off loses and save a little loot. The individuals who loved SH/VC enough to pony up $1k and then the company was defunct a couple months later just seem more wronged in my head. Luckily, I don't think there were a lot but that doesn't matter for the few that did.

[silentgods]

End of the day, if Virgil was actively trying to make the wrong things right i wouldn't have an issue with him.

I've e-mailed him countless times about getting my 60 dollars back. right when he sent the "i'm sorry the co-op didn't go down the way i expected" e-mail.

have i received a reply? No.

have i received a record? No.

have i received money? No.

but it just doesn't seem like a concern to him that people who he burned are trying to get ahold of him. yeah, i'd feel like shit too if i owed a bunch of money to labels/distributors, but you can be DAMN sure if i wanted to remain in the music business. i'd make things right before i tried to make it again.

and thats what the biggest problem is, at the end of the day, he took the collectives money to pay off someone else. money that wasn't to be touched except for co-op. He took from Peter to pay Paul, essentially.

He owed Deathwish money and was going on beer tours, Tre called him on that bullshit. because thats what it was. your business is going down-hill? you don't fucking go on craft beer tours, your broke ass drinks Natty Light til you get it figured out.

[GradedOnACurve]

My personal opinion, the people that should absolutely have been paid back already were the people who spent $1k on the SH lifetime subscription. It's hard to say that one wrong is worse than another, but distros owed money is business. Maybe the companies can even write off loses and save a little loot. The individuals who loved SH/VC enough to pony up $1k and then the company was defunct a couple months later just seem more wronged in my head. Luckily, I don't think there were a lot but that doesn't matter for the few that did.

I wasn't a board member when this was offered but I did see this in the VC store. How many people bought in for life?

[xjustinxschwierx]

for the record, Virgil did pay me back what I think he owed me...it took two payments 8 or 9 months apart from each other, when I asked for a statement outlining where he got that amount he replied with a vague, just check the last invoice I sent you a year ago...so that was a blow off answer admittedly. ...and he never sent back the 50+ CDs I sent to VC at the end when he was grasping at straws to keep afloat and started taking CDs for distro...which is no real loss given that CDs do not sell anyway, so that's 50 less in my apartment.

but that last payment email was the last communication I've had with him... the OG poster has more than a justified complaint given the band was promised certain things in order to do the record and that was not fulfilled.

why are we arguing about this again?

The dude sucks, and he stole money from a lot of us...

Scott, why are you grandstanding on this topic? It's a losing battle.

[steviex2shoes]

Just in case anyone was wondering Virgil still owes me money. Scumbag in my book.

I was just going to ask this. But it doesn't seem like the people calling him out for a list of those still owed money are actually the ones owed anything themselves. If the people he owes money to want to say how much is owed to them and how much he has paid off in the last year they can go ahead and do that. But I don't think the majority of us have any right to say we're owed this information.

This thread needs to end. Ruiner dude I hope someday you'll get your test presses, but it seems like you won't. However I'd say don't give up keep trying.

[thebiglebowski]

But deathwish can just write it off right?

Can they? I don't know. It would take a 100% loss and turn it into a 75% loss. If I were a distro owed money, I would try.

[selfreliable]

You all are missing the point. If it wasnt for Scott we never would have got Norma Jean records!

Also, if I beat up females in public, will people go wild over gifs of me too?

Most grossly false statement of the thread. No male JS cast member has ever hit a woman. The guys have fought, and the girls have fought. Snooki getting punched in the first season by a man was by a bar random.

Thanks for clarifying that. I dont watch the show, and saw that clip about 1000 times and they made it seem like it was a cast member that decked her.